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Vlákno: Should GPRO have its own set of Tools for players? |
49 odpovedí
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I guess the best may be to do nothing, but if I needed to change something
1) A tool for everyone, which would suggest safe fuel and tyres. This shouldn't be too good, but enough to do well in rookie if other things are on good enough level. Maybe also a warning for parts that may break. Again, on rough level.
2) Better in built data viewer for supporters
3) Total revamp of setups. Make it much harder to follow an unrealistic algorithm (eg find end of happy gap). At the same time, give more laps for that.
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Quote ( Gino Zernani @ March 19th 2023,17:32:21 ) .... and thousand of zombies who pays for play, thousand more when opened to steam.... and thats why gpro crashed, quite simple, no?
As I said, if it was only because of the settings, this game would be way boring...You won't go anywere above Amateur with just the right settings. First, there is strategies and risks. Then, you have a driver stats, car updates, tests, staff and facilities, money management and so much more that you have to figure out by yourself that. You can't succeed here with few good formulas if you can't understand the game. Making it easier won't make it easier for Pro and above.
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Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ March 19th 2023,21:05:04 ) 1) A tool for everyone, which would suggest safe fuel and tyres. This shouldn't be too good, but enough to do well in rookie if other things are on good enough level. Maybe also a warning for parts that may break. Again, on rough level.
A good compromise that could be set just for rookie groups
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Quote ( Enzo Euler @ March 20th 2023,14:14:13 ) YES.
This is not a suggestion to erase FOBY, Enzo :P
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Quote ( Gino Zernani @ March 19th 2023,17:32:21 ) Anal boy Is there a tool or training to be that one?
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Quote ( Thijs Rieken @ March 19th 2023,11:10:54 ) I don't think app development has been a smart move for anything other than exposure.
So true.
Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ March 19th 2023,18:00:08 ) I don't like continuous tweaks. Yes, it would make old copies of tools less good, but those selling them would quickly adjust and update them, while it would make basic fobying even harder.
Unless they cant adapt that quickly... I've found the GA to be slightly outdated in some areas...
Quote ( Gino Zernani @ March 19th 2023,17:32:21 ) .... and thousand of zombies who pays for play, thousand more when opened to steam.... and thats why gpro crashed, quite simple, no? The team tools did exist since season 13 (and also before, but wasnt here to report that) and nothing happened early.
Btw you got the point Krasen, too good, which can only lead to admit 2 scenarios.
The best case.
Anal boy(s) (which only anal ize the people) cracked most of the code and decided to sell his knowlwdge transforming a research game in a pay per win game. Mr El presidente should have been aware of that but did nothing. Bad move, his fault, its called culpa in vigilando. You cannot support the foby way (which is the real plus of the game) and allow some others break the rule selling a pay per win app and gaining money.
The worse one.
Someone from the inside sold the code to the anal boy, so to avoid the pay per win stuff but reserving to himself some revenues. Someone has any idea of who can be the deep throat? (Me yes).
Imo in both cases mr Vladimir El presidente has great responsability so what the point in suddenly change the cards on the table? Wasnt better to inform the people in adavnce? Or shall i believe that mr el presidentes rule are: this is my home and i do what I want unrespect what my customers desire? Remember that those are the ones who 'bring bread on your table'.
And finally, no, it is not a reverse engineering game which means you breaked the foby rule , but a DIRECT (math) engineering one, done by collecting and analising data, plotting curve and discover trends. If the approach is: i need to use other output data, then why dont try Fifa or call of duty or similar?
A lot of truth has been spoken here.
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Bringing all this back to bare basics, IMO ...
- The game is heavily leaning on solving mathematical problems, either precisely or getting as close to as possible.
- For that simple fact, the game is just not everybody's cup of tea, not even a perfect tool would change that.
Serving new players with a approximate tool is only solving half the problem from my POV. The more experienced players know very well, that having a Tool to do the legwork is only half the battle. Not knowing how to work the numbers presented by it, still potentially leaves one in the dust. As such, I think/believe that it's not the tool itself that will provide eternal bliss, it's more in the mindset of any player. Becoming a better manager surely is involving experience, knowledge and also the use of tools. However, if one is not working all this with a manager mindset, it's likely all will be in vain.
I do agree that a simple tool could aid in player retention. But I don't think it should be a tool that only spits out the possible solutions. I think it should encourage new players to adopt a mindset, a way of thinking. That manager mindset to be developed, will be of help further on in the game, when the going gets ever tougher. Providing new players with the sense of achievements in game, is part of the lure to drag them further into the game.
In ROOKIE the first problems to solve are Fuel Consumption, Tyre Wear, and Driver attributes. Then there's also the concept that the slower H-tyre might actually be able to see you finish in less total race time, than the fastest ES-tyre ever could! Then there's some also some forces in play that are hard to figure out, like the Happy Range/Zone. All basics to be able to start getting a grasp of the game as a whole. Not knowing how these aspects are to be figured out and used, surely would be grounds for early retirement from the game.
Teams in general will help new members getting up to speed by handing them knowledge and tools. But the available information gathered and provided, could easily be overwhelming. Besides, with the high influx of new player via Steam, is just a tad high for the current number of teams and mentors to tend to all.
Rather than just serve a simple tool, I would suggest to come up with some sort of course type arrangement! Some in-game written learning system that will get all newbies up to the same basic level of understanding. Good enough to make it out of ROOKIE and to make it stick in AMA, which these days is not that hard to do, let's be honest! The course should bypass the whole FOBY idea at ROOKIE level, without just handing over the info. Some effort must be put in to keep the challenge alive! It should entice to stick around, by providing a sense of grip on the game.
New players could well be better of with limited (bite-size) packages of knowledge. Limited to overcome only the first few hurdles, enough to keep them interested, and of such quality that most indeed will experience progression in the game.
- The benefit > All new players will have equal chance to slide into the game, not being left to either a mentor of team to be picked up!
- The downside > It requires a teacher's mind to get this setup in the form of a course! Who would be willing and able to do this?!
Once a good group is gathered that would be willing and able to take on such a task, it will take some time to be worked out. Even simple equations than could be described. Based on this info, players could start their own Excel sheets and be off to an at least half decent start. I view this as an (hopefully) fully automated mentor-plus option, something like the (inter-)national online course center! The less mentoring involved, the more equal the chances are for all entering and completing this course!
The game is never going to be easy, endurance and perseverance are key to get up to PRO and beyond. To do so, a basic understanding of the underlying game dynamics, is what will be paying of in the long run. New managers that will be willing to dig in and take the course, will likely also be more appealing for teams to take them in after they completed such! And though being part of a team is not for all, that too is an aspect that many like, and need to even stand half the chance to make it beyond AMA ...
*just my 2 cents* ;)
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I have felt for a long time time there should be a basic tool attached to the game that allows new managers into the ball park with set ups.. I tend to feel the majority of those who stick with the game join teams with tools anyway.
so its the others we want to hold on too by giving them half a chance especially the new app users
Even if it only makes more rookie amateur managers hang around or acts as a bridge to getting the bug for the game and those managers then go onto a team I see this as progress.
I also think the perennial rookie mangers that have played forever with no clue would be more competitive having better set ups this would provide better racing for those rookies who have joined teams and using top tools can pretty much beat these guys with no effort at all and any driver in the seat.
There also an option to just add a practice boost option
that offers a set percentage of set up improvements (determined by the game designers)
so at the start of practice there closer to the range they need and stand more change of fine tuning in practice? but not sure this solves the problem.
But with the new app users something needs to be done so their not standing at the edge of a cliff
If we were to do a survey of how many who play the game from amateur to elite
who use team tools or external ones I expect the result will massive in favor of those who do and find only a few are totally self made?
I agree with krasen even with an accurate set up 100% theres still so many variables
to learn and make this game great and challenging
but I will leave it up to the developers to decide what improvements they want to allow and look forward to seeing what comes of this conversation in the future.
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No. What GPRO needs is a simple API to fetch data, to grab all relevant data for a user. Rename the limited access credentials to api credentials, rate limit the bejesus out of it, and you're done.
Heck, let a team agree on a set of team credentials and you can fetch the whole team's data in one request. Magnificient.
The people can make the tools, less conflict of interest and allows Vlad to spend all his time on the apps :)
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API aside, which would be a good thing on many different levels for sure ...
So you pull all the data, but still would be clueless on how to make good use of it? Still looks like a half-way solution to brand new players to me ...
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Current free tools are mostly built on top of a steaming pile of crap. Heck, with the current way data needs to be scraped, i'd pose ALL tools have a foundation of pretty smelly manure.
Despite that, there's still a lot of eager people building tools. If GPRO would just facilitate them by offering an api, i am convinced you'll see a huge uptick, not only in the amount of tools built, but also their quality/accuracy.
Edit: besides that, it's a bit of a catch 22 if you let GPRO offer a certain (limited, i'd reckon) set of helper tools. You'd just be moving the line of what tooling people will look for outside of GPRO's yard.
Imagine GPRO does develop tools (where do they find the time, right?), i guess their accuracy shouldn't be a 100%, as that'll make some dinos shit their pants.
Where would that line be? And wont people just start building tools that either unconver that inaccuracy, or provide more accuracy by themselves?
Another scenario: 30% of players use the official (TM) helper tools, but they had a bug. Ruined all their races. The rest of the players used their pocket calcs or other tooling and had no issue.
Who's responsible for this fuckup? What if 30% demands a rerun because of it? (this was the conflict of interest i referred to earlier)
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@Miel Soeterbroek (A9) There is a paid one I heard about. It also does not bring the accuracy that I expect from my own calculations.
Still, a lot of people use it.
I'm surprised they don't support GPRO, but they pay for it.
I don't understand people.
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Quote ( Sébastien Boulanger @ March 21st 2023,13:56:03 ) I was working on new protocol for data grab, i think i will publish it free
I've had similar thoughts. Have built enough scrapers that can quite quickly be combined into a local running proxy that spits out a single json blob or something. But then again, what use would that be, if any.
Quote ( Sébastien Boulanger @ March 21st 2023,13:56:03 ) but "rejected".
That's something that i haven't seen addressed in this thread: GPRO's stance on tooling in general. We can all want official GPRO tools, but if GPRO doesnt want tools at all, that'd end the whole discussion. And to be frank, from past interactions, i get the feeling tools arent high on the list of desirables.
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My argument is not with reference to tools as such, they are what they are ...
I'm more on the subject of deeper understanding the game. How to help (new) managers not to just blindly follow numbers produced by whichever tool. All tools (except those upright) only provide numbers, but it's the way you take it from there where the differences can be made. For such IMO, one would need to understand more of the game dynamics, rather than just being able to push a few buttons, and/or only being able to read and write ;)
To add to the above;
- I'm certainly not contra API, data grabbing/pulling of sorts simply saves precious time!
- I'm curious to see what you come up with @Sébastien Boulanger (A67)
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Quote ( Miel Soeterbroek @ March 21st 2023,13:19:59 ) Imagine GPRO does develop tools (where do they find the time, right?), i guess their accuracy shouldn't be a 100%, as that'll make some dinos shit their pants.
Where would that line be? And wont people just start building tools that either unconver that inaccuracy, or provide more accuracy by themselves?
Develop? All you need is to look at proper formula, invent a formula that is certainly above that, add some randomness and that's it. And the whole point is still that people who want develop further. But the point would be that the game can be played without developing or buying external tools if people want to do that. And yes, I know you won't need tools in Rookie if you can think, but not all people can. Not sure if Vlad wants to keep them, but if he wants, then I think this is needed.
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speaking from the perspective of working with new people as a mentor, I agree with having a base tool that would help folks with trivial aspects of the game like setup, tyre cals, fuels calcs and part wear.
When you compare how insignificant these things are compared to the grander aspects of the game, it only makes sense.
Having see how many folks just quit after a race or two because they have no idea about those "basics" and the guides/FAQ's are so slim on any info, its a wonder this hasn't been something implemented earlier.
EDIT: No jokes about me as a Mentor :P
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Because there's nothing Vlad can do to combat the separate websites which sell tools for public consumption, the long term fix is to make all of the formulas in this game dynamic. In a way, all motorsports are like that anyway (more fuel burn, tyre wear, part wear when pushing to overtake, for FL, etc).
I was lucky enough to be around when GPRO had a strong FOBY nature and it was way more fun than it is now, where everyone is using someone else's tool for every single aspect, even long term complex financial management.....
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When 240 old players are ready to play with themselves to remain undefeated, the prospect of an alternative championship arises.
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