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Tema: Russia has attacked Ukraine! |
18311 atsakymų
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Quote ( Stephen Montague @ March 29th 2023,00:47:45 ) the Warsaw pact wasn't an alliance, those nations didn't want to be a part of the USSR they didn't get to act independently, this is why they were so quick to join Nato the first chance they got, are you seriously that fucking stupid or what?
"countries wanted to join NATO."
Here is an article - how Poland joined NATO.
https://inosmi.ru/20190806/245587117.html
The article is quite long and it discusses in detail - who and how promoted Poland to NATO.
Try to find in this article - when and how were the Polish people asked about their desire to be in NATO?
Was there a referendum and what were its results?
When you say that "the country wanted to join NATO" - this is a lie.
The country itself, the people were not asked.
Everything was decided by politicians, and in many countries of the world - from the USA to Russia.
Therefore, you can tell the reasoning "the country wanted" to small children. They still believe.
And read the documents - the "Warsaw Pact" is a military alliance. That is how he was understood by everyone in the world.
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Quote ( Allard Swart @ March 29th 2023,00:51:05 ) Who cares that countries are a part of NATO? We would just have been trading allies.
Russia clearly said:
Russia is very worried that so many NATO countries have appeared around its borders.
Russia does not have the right to state its security requirements, but should only think about trade?
Quote ( Allard Swart @ March 29th 2023,00:51:05 ) The US would probably be fine with it too. And even if they weren't, what could they really do to stop it? While the US is far more powerful than Europe, losing their backing would be very painful.
The US has military bases all over the world, including around our borders.
How many Russian military bases are there near US borders?
If we consider adequate equal relations, then we need to equalize the number of military bases.
Or does the US have the exclusive right because they have more money and more opportunities?
Quote ( Allard Swart @ March 29th 2023,00:51:05 ) Russia attacked, not the West. They threw the punch while there were still words to be spoken. Russia was in the wrong and the results is the deaths of thousands.
Do you know that in 2014 Ukraine launched an anti-terrorist operation (ATO), attacking with armed formations and units of the Ukrainian army on the territory of the Donetsk and Lugansk Republics?
Did you then also blame the Ukrainian government for the attack?
This conflict is more than one year old, but you are comfortable considering only part of it.
You take into account the opinion of only one side. Most likely the one that is constantly spinning in your media.
If you do not want to listen to the opinion of another and try to figure it out - this is your right.
Perhaps the meaning of European freedom of speech and democracy is to have an opinion only from newspaper editorials.
Quote ( Allard Swart @ March 29th 2023,00:51:05 ) The thing with demands is this: If both parties have demands that don't match, you'll have to discuss about what is right. What you don't do is start killing people because you think you can win.
Agree.
We expressed our demand and asked to discuss it.
He was not discussed.
So we will achieve our security conditions in other ways.
Why are you so surprised by this way?
The US and NATO have been using it for a long time.
First they speak, and if they are not listened to, they are bombed and forced to their opinion by military means.
Because they think they are strong and they know they can win.
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Quote ( Denny Holt @ March 29th 2023,01:55:20 ) What you don't do is start killing people because you think you can win.
+1000
Does Russia have the right to convince other countries in the same way that the US and NATO convince them?
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Quote ( Atli Thor Johannesson @ March 29th 2023,09:37:11 ) People on one side of this unnecessary argument, are horrified by the actions of one big aggressive nation, attacking another neighboring smaller nation,, horrified by the unnecessary deaths brought on by the big nation and want to support the nation being slaughtered, while defending their home.
Are you talking about Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya, Syria and Afghanistan?
Thanks, well said.
Quote ( Atli Thor Johannesson @ March 29th 2023,09:37:11 ) Then you have the other side of this unnecessary argument, where some people glorify the big nation, celebrate it's attacks, even deliberate attacks on innocent civilians.
Thanks again.
A nation as big as the United States should be ashamed.
There is no doubt who is morally right here!
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People on one side of this unnecessary argument, are horrified by the actions of one big aggressive nation, attacking another neighboring smaller nation,, horrified by the unnecessary deaths brought on by the big nation and want to support the nation being slaughtered, while defending their home.
Then you have the other side of this unnecessary argument, where some people glorify the big nation, celebrate it's attacks, even deliberate attacks on innocent civilians.
They argue, lie and seem to be willing to do anything to justify what is happening in Ukraine.
There is no question who is morally on the right side of the line here!
Yet, some other people feel the need to shut this thread down, giving the aggression celebrators another "win", because that's the whole point of theirs, to shut down all support for Ukraine.
So, "thanks" Niels, (sarcasm may apply a bit), I don't know your intentions, but the potential consequence is another "win" for today's Nazi equivalent, (at least if you judge the Russians by their actions, not their words.)
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Quote ( Atli Thor Johannesson @ March 29th 2023,09:37:11 ) Yet, some other people feel the need to shut this thread down, giving the aggression celebrators another "win", because that's the whole point of theirs, to shut down all support for Ukraine.
So, "thanks" Niels, (sarcasm may apply a bit), I don't know your intentions, but the potential consequence is another "win" for today's Nazi equivalent, (at least if you judge the Russians by their actions, not their words.)
Seriously, Atli??! And even repeat posting it too ...
I'm very disappointed by your words, I thought better of you! Putting my intend, which in your own words is even unknown to you, in this context, is a outright evil attempt to put me in a light that I do not feel I deserve! I've voiced my opinions here many times, and it's a far cry from your implication that my "need to shut down this thread, the whole point would be to shut down support for Ukraine!"???
You know perfectly well I fully support Ukraine in all this, and what your implying here could not be further from the truth! I'm for freedom and democracy, and against any and all illegal and utter wasteful military interventions.
> Seriously, Atli, I do take this as an extreme personal offense! <
However, your totally misplaced conclusion/post is exactly underlining why I created the poll. The object always was to either close the thread as per original Forum-rules OR at minimum to get a reset on what is being allowed a/o condoned within our Forum, aka Forum moderation!
As for my intend (thanks for asking ...) with the poll posted, granted given the responses left and right, I might have been more careful about the words chosen. But even on aspects that in my POV are pretty clear, people clearly are misreading or misinterpreting my words. Which brings me back to the essence of me posting that poll. I'm utterly disgusted by the way people are not paying closer attention to what others are posting/stating, yet allowing themselves and others to express their aggressiveness in excessive ways. In my POV, this has been going on for way too long now!
This thread no longer conveys a "healthy discussion" in which participants echange and discuss POV's
- There's no true discussion to begin with!
- People post many things, and certainly not all is even indirectly related to the OP!
- There's no listening to each other, only forcefully trying to get one's personal view across!
- When questions are asked/answered, these are either denied or simply bypassed with no other intend to re-post the same over and over again in an endless circle!
- And on top of it all, statements and comments are outright offensive, rude, discriminatory, insulting or plain harassment, let alone the death threats and cheering on casualties suffering from this war!
> The way several people have behaved in this thread, would have been plenty of reason in so many other platforms to be banned for life!
My cry for "attention", if you want to label it as such, was multi-layered;
1. It's in the game rules that politics should not be debated within the GPRO-forum threads! This thread clearly shows why, doesn't it ... ?
2. While it is condoned, it's only "loosely moderated" according to the thread's byline. One could however argue that it's not being moderated at all!
3. This thread has been going all over the place, and worst of all keyboard warriors behavior has been surfacing inside this online game!
4. Forum rules, among many other things, also clearly define the following;
• No offensive, rude or discriminatory language
• No insulting or harassment of other managers
• No religious, political or otherwise inappropriate material
> These rules have been broken multiple times, in ways that are just outright appalling, at least to me and it looks like I'm not the only one in this!
TLDR?
What it comes down to is, going back to basics, before being able to move forward again!
1. What will be the future GPRO-rule? Are we allowing political discussions or not?
2. Modding Forum threads does not stop, when things become difficult! If the crew allows any thread, then it also is responsible for modding it!
If threads like these are going to be allowed within GPRO, the minimum moderation that GPRO is responsible for is to keep the discussion free from overly clear offensive, rude or discriminatory language, insulting or harassment of other managers!
> In other words, clean up the way the discussion is going by modding according to Forum rules, or close it all together!
At this moment in time, all this is just a total waste on so many levels!
And NO, this is not to cut support for Ukraine at all, not even in the slightest bit!!!
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 29th 2023,09:49:07 ) Quote ( Stephen Montague @ March 29th 2023,00:47:45 )
the Warsaw pact wasn't an alliance, those nations didn't want to be a part of the USSR they didn't get to act independently, this is why they were so quick to join Nato the first chance they got, are you seriously that fucking stupid or what?
"countries wanted to join NATO."
Here is an article - how Poland joined NATO.
https://inosmi.ru/20190806/245587117.html
The article is quite long and it discusses in detail - who and how promoted Poland to NATO.
Try to find in this article - when and how were the Polish people asked about their desire to be in NATO?
Was there a referendum and what were its results?
When you say that "the country wanted to join NATO" - this is a lie.
The country itself, the people were not asked.
Everything was decided by politicians, and in many countries of the world - from the USA to Russia.
Therefore, you can tell the reasoning "the country wanted" to small children. They still believe.
And read the documents - the "Warsaw Pact" is a military alliance. That is how he was understood by everyone in the world.
and at the end of WWII did you ask countries like Poland if they wanted to be ruled by Russia? nope!
so again making sure the narrative fits for you, at the end of the day Politicians make most decisions, you can't have referendums for everything, but you already know that, you only have "referendums" when you have already decided the outcome ;)
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Quote ( Niels Van Heijster @ March 29th 2023,11:03:48 ) Seriously, Atli, I do take this as an extreme personal offense!
It was definitely not meant as an attack on you man, so I apologize profoundly, since you took it that way!
I am just very disappointed that you made that poll and as a result Ihor has left the game. He specifically mentioned the poll as a reason.
Quote ( Niels Van Heijster @ March 29th 2023,11:03:48 ) This thread no longer conveys a "healthy discussion" in which participants echange and discuss POV's
- There's no true discussion to begin with!
Exactly, this was not meant as a discussion thread and started off fine, until the war justifications and murder celebrations started coming in.
Quote ( Niels Van Heijster @ March 29th 2023,11:03:48 ) Seriously, Atli??! And even repeat posting it too ...
I did that because the Troll was up to his usual antics.
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Quote ( Niels Van Heijster @ March 29th 2023,11:03:48 ) > These rules have been broken multiple times, in ways that are just outright appalling, at least to me and it looks like I'm not the only one in this!
Although we disagree on many issues, here I agree with you.
If there is a desire to conduct a discussion according to certain moderation rules, then they must be introduced.
Without hard moderation, the discussion goes to the level of personal insults.
If you need a topic where there will be an unequivocal and non-negotiable condemnation of one of the parties, then it is necessary to designate this in the rules. And for example, not to allow anyone who wants to express a different opinion to the discussion.
If you need a discussion that does not turn into insults, then you must clearly indicate this in the rules for discussion.
Without moderation, the discussion goes to the lowest level of insults. I don't think anyone needs this level.
Let's set the rules for discussion and stick to them. Otherwise it is better to close it.
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Quote ( Niels Van Heijster @ March 29th 2023,11:03:48 )
As for my intend (thanks for asking ...) with the poll posted, granted given the responses left and right, I might have been more careful about the words chosen. But even on aspects that in my POV are pretty clear, people clearly are misreading or misinterpreting my words. Which brings me back to the essence of me posting that poll. I'm utterly disgusted by the way people are not paying closer attention to what others are posting/stating, yet allowing themselves and others to express their aggressiveness in excessive ways. In my POV, this has been going on for way too long now!
Excluding 1 person from the thread would change its nature completely, as you are well aware mate.
But as I said in the Poll thread, kick everyone but Ihor and Serhyi out, but leave access to thumbs up/down. More than enough has been said on both sides, for anyone but Ihor and Serhyi.
The Russian can make his/their own "support the war" thread, one I wont come near.
I don't have any problem with you, nor do I want any, So I apologize again for insulting you.
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Quote ( Atli Thor Johannesson @ March 29th 2023,11:20:06 ) It was definitely not meant as an attack on you man, so I apologize profoundly since you took it that way!
I'll accept your apology! I do so as I truly believe you did not mean it as such!
I do however kindly ask to be more careful in linking things that you (would/should) know are incorrect!
To me this is a prime example of how these things so easily derail. People jump to conclusions without reading well, then cry wolf over others while not really thinking through their own words posted.
> This goes for parties on both sides ...
Please read back on what I wrote in that Poll. The suggested "ban/block rules" are there to make the poll a more black vs white option, forcing people to think twice on there response, rather than that I believe it should be so. It's a poll-theory to put poll-choices in such a way, in which respondents should be triggered to think more carefully before responding. One can debate if it should be used here. I'll stand corrected on that part ....
However, what most seemingly failed to notice, is this part;
Quote ( Niels Van Heijster @ March 28th 2023,16:50:38 ) Providing the thread indeed will be closed, it should ...
Here it should be clear that Forum modding is addressed before any resulting actions would ever be enforced. When people so easily overlook such important details, anything can happen, even the very much unintended!
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Quote ( Stephen Montague @ March 29th 2023,11:13:28 ) but you already know that, you only have "referendums" when you have already decided the outcome ;)
Correctly, I understand that a referenum in Poland on joining NATO was not held due to the fact that the leadership of Poland was not sure of a convenient result for them.
That is, the population of Poland could well be against such an entry, so the leadership of Poland decided everything for the country.
Quote ( Stephen Montague @ March 29th 2023,11:13:28 )
and at the end of WWII did you ask countries like Poland if they wanted to be ruled by Russia? nope!
Did the Red Army liberate Poland from the Nazis against the wishes of the Poles themselves?
Are you sure that the Polish population wanted to remain under Hitler and did not want liberation?
When the Red Army crossed the border of the USSR in 1944 and began to liberate Europe from fascism, did it launch an "aggressive invasion of Europe"?
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Quote ( Niels Van Heijster @ March 29th 2023,11:30:20 ) I'll accept your apology! I do so as I truly believe you did not mean it as such!
Thank you NielsQuote ( Niels Van Heijster @ March 29th 2023,11:30:20 ) do however kindly ask to be more careful in linking things that you (would/should) know are incorrect!
To me this is a prime example of how these things so easily derail. People jump to conclusions without reading well, then cry wolf over others while not really thinking through their own words posted.
> This goes for parties on both sides ...
Agreed.
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Quote ( Atli Thor Johannesson @ March 29th 2023,11:20:06 ) Exactly, this was not meant as a discussion thread
Now it is clear what the problem is.
This topic was created for unequivocal condemnation, censure and demands for punishment for the already found "criminal".
And the "criminal" suddenly began to express his opinion and give his facts.
In a democratic free world, this is unacceptable!
Whom the US and Europe points to is the criminal.
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 29th 2023,11:40:27 ) Now it is clear what the problem is.
The problem is that you should make your own thread, instead of ruining this one.
But that is your whole intent, so you wont.
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As for this ...
Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 29th 2023,11:30:03 ) If there is a desire to conduct a discussion according to certain moderation rules, then they must be introduced.
There are clear Forum rules in place;
9.1 Forums
Any user, who is registered and approved by the administrators, is entitled to use the forums. The official language of the forums is English. Other languages may be spoken in the foreign language forums only. The rules for the forum are:
• No offensive, rude or discriminatory language
• No insulting or harassment of other managers
• No religious, political or otherwise inappropriate material
• No discussions related to illegal distribution or use of copyrighted material
• No advertisements (unless previously approved by the GPRO Crew)
• No posting of referral links of any kind
• Do not attempt to circumvent posting about, or linking to, blacklisted sites
• No revealing detailed information about the game
• Do not post private messages on the forums without prior consent of the sender
• Do not post on behalf of other managers - all are free to make their own posts unless currently banned from a thread or the full forum, and if they are banned their posts are not permitted, even through another party
• No blatant posting of off topic material in threads
• Post threads in the appropriate forum
• Keep the Newbie Forum as factually accurate as possible and always on topic
• Individual forums (such as Newbie, Team Recruitment and Suggestion) have their own specific guidelines/rules which can be found at the top of the list when these forums are viewed so please familiarize yourself with these before posting in these forums
• No double account accusations or discussion of actual or perceived double accounts, past or present (if you have suspicions of a double account, contact Mr Shadow directly)
• Backseat modding is not allowed; do not reprimand fellow managers for their forum behavior and if you feel a forum rule was broken, consult a mod
• No forum spamming or pointless posts
• Use good forum etiquette including, but not limited to, avoiding shouting (using all capitals) and avoiding consecutive posts when an edit is suitable
• Always follow instructions given to you by any member of the Crew with regards to forum and mailbox behavior
• The moderator's decision is final
As a well seasoned player, you would/should be very aware of these rules, and abide by them
Easy to check here > /gb/GPRORules.asp#91-forumsOne of the pages every new player is directed too upon their first request for support!
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Quote ( Niels Van Heijster @ March 29th 2023,11:46:28 ) • No offensive, rude or discriminatory language
• No insulting or harassment of other managers
• No religious, political or otherwise inappropriate material
The third point was excluded from the very beginning.
Now the forbidden first section is actively used.
I am ready to conduct any discussion strictly adhering to the first two points.
But this should apply to other forum members as well.
And of course, you need to immediately specify what the branch is created for:
- discuss opinions
- condemn the country, rulers and individual participants
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Quote ( Atli Thor Johannesson @ March 29th 2023,11:45:35 ) The problem is that you should make your own thread, instead of ruining this one.
But that is your whole intent, so you wont.
Yes, everyone knows that you are right only when no one objects to you.
If you don't know how to argue, find facts and lead a discussion, then maybe you shouldn't go to a discussion forum?
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 29th 2023,12:00:40 ) Yes, everyone knows that you are right only when no one objects to you.
I love a good argument, when something calls for it.
But the Russian murders in Ukraine, needs no discussion here.
Be it from me, or you.
Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 29th 2023,12:00:40 )
If you don't know how to argue, find facts and lead a discussion, then maybe you shouldn't go to a discussion forum?
The thing is, I feel no need whatsoever to argue with you.
There is a level so low (Russias despicable attack on Ukraine), there is no need to argue there, as it is obvious to anyone what is happening.
Hence, I rate you so low as a human being, based only on your own repeated words in this very thread, that I have no need what so ever to communicate with you... only to you. There are very few people I have communicated with in my lifetime, if any, that repulse me as much as you do.
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Quote ( Atli Thor Johannesson @ March 29th 2023,12:09:23 ) But the Russian murders in Ukraine, needs no discussion here.
If you were a judge, you would definitely forbid lawyers from even entering your courtroom and kick out all the jurors.
Because they would interfere with your most just and final decision.
Are you sure you're not a dictator?
Quote ( Atli Thor Johannesson @ March 29th 2023,12:09:23 ) Hence, I rate you so low as a human being
Getting personal instead of looking at the facts is a sign of very low discussion.
If someone cites the same facts as I do, it seems that you also did not want to communicate with them.
Maybe the problem is not in the participants, but in the facts that you do not like?
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 29th 2023,11:56:17 ) The third point was excluded from the very beginning.
The main part of the problem on why this thread was allowed in the first place, at least from my POV!
Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 29th 2023,11:56:17 ) I am ready to conduct any discussion strictly adhering to the first two points.
Agreed! As well as this applies for all participating!
Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 29th 2023,11:56:17 ) But this should apply to other forum members as well.
Agreed! And it's why I made the possible feeble attempt with said poll in an effort to clean up the mess we created in here, all combined! You'll have noticed I did not single out anyone! If not, I kindly suggest to re-read it as reading things correctly and accepting the intend of any post, is the basis of a proper discussion. Twisting of any posts intention for support of a totally different agenda, is just bad conduct, by anyone concerned!
Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 29th 2023,11:56:17 ) And of course, you need to immediately specify what the branch is created for:
The OP (opening post) is always leading, and all should be handled under Forum rules. There is no ambiguous reasoning here.
From my POV, all participants should have a long hard look in the mirror, then shape up. Only after such come back with a better attitude participating in this discussion!
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Quote ( Niels Van Heijster @ March 29th 2023,12:16:59 ) From my POV, all participants should have a long hard look in the mirror, then shape up. Only after such come back with a better attitude participating in this discussion!
I fully agree and support both the survey and the above theses.
If the discussion continues, then it must continue under strict moderation according to pre-announced rules (for example, we exclude only one policy item from the general rules).
Each participant is moderated, regardless of which side he is on.
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 29th 2023,12:16:30 ) Getting personal instead of looking at the facts is a sign of very low discussion.
Perhaps.
But sometimes you come across these (i hope) rare people, who don't seem to have a shred of empathy, or humanity in their being.
You come across to me, in so many aspects, as one of those.
People of this nature bring out the absolute worst in me, which is annoying, as they don't deserve the attention and are not worth the time.
I genuinely regard you as my enemy, as an enemy of our way of life, as someone who wants us dead and I really do hope I never ever meet you in person.
Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 29th 2023,12:16:30 ) Getting personal
Your own words make this very personal.
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Quote ( Atli Thor Johannesson @ March 29th 2023,12:31:53 ) I genuinely regard you as my enemy, as an enemy of our way of life, as someone who wants us dead and I really do hope I never ever meet you in person.
Thanks for the honest words.
I personally do not see my enemies here.
We have always been taught that ordinary people in other countries are normal good people who are taken advantage of by elites and politicians.
Financial, industrial, military elites own politicians and the media, with the help of which they create the necessary opinion for themselves and buy politicians.
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 29th 2023,12:39:36 ) We have always been taught that ordinary people
Ordinary people don't celebrate civilian murders, regardless of who perpetrates them.
Ordinary people don't gleefully threaten nuclear strikes on our nations, killing millions.
There is nothing ordinary about your repeated words in this thread.
No one else on your side of the argument has done that, even close to the extent you do it.
Hence, they get a pass, but you are way way past that point.
No apologies or remorse will fix that, since your intentions and views are very clear for all to see.
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Quote ( Atli Thor Johannesson @ March 29th 2023,12:51:08 ) No apologies or remorse will fix that, since your intentions and views are very clear for all to see.
I forgot that you, as the supreme judge, have already made your decision on who is to blame.
Without discussion, consideration of facts, lawyers.
You live very well - you have no doubts and questions.
Okay, then will you allow me to apply any accusations against you as well? Just because I think so.
Do you agree?
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 29th 2023,12:57:53 )
I forgot that you, as the supreme judge, have already made your decision on who is to blame. I am only speaking for myself, no one else.
Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 29th 2023,12:57:53 ) Okay, then will you allow me to apply any accusations against you as well? Just because I think so.
Do you agree?
Absolutely, as long as you base those accusations on my own words.
Because I have only accused you based on your own words.
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Guys! May I suggest a 24hr pauze?!
Tensions are still high, and it would be best to allow all to have a bit of a breather, to reset our thoughts and emotions! Start respecting each other, by acknowledging things went off track. A 24hr pauze can help to bypass these emotions that are potentially triggering each other yet again!
All need time to get past exactly these parts in this thread that led to it all blowing up into the mess that actually triggered me to post that poll ...
Please ... shut it for a bit, then come back with a refreshed mind ;)
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Quote ( Niels Van Heijster @ March 29th 2023,13:20:11 ) Guys! May I suggest a 24hr pauze?!
Good idea, i'm in :)
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Dmitry I don't agree with the reasons given to invade.
Neither NATO's presence nor the conflict in eastern Ukraine called for Russia to go in for an all out war. They even knew that themselves because they decided to call it a 'Special Military Operation'.
Russia should have continued talks with Ukraine and tried to find a good solution for all parties. And the focus of those talks should have been 'How do we make eastern Ukraine a stable place where people can live in peace?' From a moral point of view it shouldn't matter if that part of the world is Ukrainian or Russian.
But that wasn't what Russia wanted out of this conflict, they wanted to gain new territory. Are you willing to accept this truth?
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