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Tema: Russia has attacked Ukraine! |
18311 atsakymų
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 28th 2023,21:55:10 ) China is putting forward conditions that protect Russia.
Russia which is "not so big or badass anymore", needs to be protected by big badass China (in comparison to Russia at least)..
LMAO He can't even sniff the Irony of these words.
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 28th 2023,16:38:26 ) An American mercenary of the Armed Forces of Ukraine escaped from the Nazi battalion and went over to the side of Russia.
For almost a year, former US Army soldier John McIntyre was a foreign mercenary in Ukraine. He recently defected to Russia, taking with him secret documents, maps and intelligence.
John decided to surrender after he saw the horrors that the Nazis were doing to civilians and prisoners. He said that many Russian prisoners of war had their genitals cut off with a knife, and their stomachs were cut open. John also witnessed how the Ukrainian military is doing business in the sale of American weapons.
more lies Coward?
It's the reason I came to Ukraine in the first place," McIntyre told Gazdiev. "I'm a communist, I'm an anti-fascist, and we have to fight fascism everywhere."
"When I came to Ukraine, I knew that I would try to get as much information as I could, anything that would be helpful, and defect across lines," he said.
He was a commie, he didn't defect because of so called horrors he witnessed, and the fact he admitted to being a commie and always planned to defect means you can't trust a thing he says, so another wasted lying post Coward
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Quote ( Atli Thor Johannesson @ March 28th 2023,22:15:19 ) Russia which is "not so big or badass anymore", needs to be protected by big badass China (in comparison to Russia at least)..
Russia is now on the defensive.
Against all NATO weapons.
Against 150 billion aid to Ukraine from the US and the EU.
But the whole world already sees who is taking the side of Russia.
China is no longer neutral, as it was a year ago.
China is already on the side of Russia.
Being neutral and being on the side of Russia are two big differences.
And this alliance is against the US and NATO.
If Europe is together with the US and NATO, then it will be against Russia, China and the rest of the world. A world that will soon cease to be neutral.
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Quote ( Ihor Rusnak @ March 28th 2023,17:46:37 ) Niels's poll knocked me out of the rut. I think I've had enough of this thread and this game. I hug everyone who supports Ukraine. Best wishes from Ukraine.
will be very sorry to see you go, Ihor... your perspective, throughout this absurd tragedy, has always been rational, stately and informative...
peace be with you, brother... Slava Ukraini...
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Quote ( Stephen Montague @ March 28th 2023,22:17:23 ) "When I came to Ukraine, I knew that I would try to get as much information as I could, anything that would be helpful, and defect across lines," he said.
So he specifically collected information and facts:
"that many Russian prisoners of war had their genitals cut off with a knife, their stomachs were cut open. John also witnessed how the Ukrainian military do business in the sale of American weapons."
You want to discuss the reasons why he came and left the Ukrainian army.
But do not want to discuss the facts that he collected:
"that many Russian prisoners of war had their genitals cut off with a knife, their stomachs were cut open. John also witnessed how the Ukrainian military do business in the sale of American weapons."
Are you sure that Ukrainian soldiers did not do this?
Because "Ukraine defends itself," and whoever defends himself is always right and cannot do anything wrong. So?
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 28th 2023,22:28:21 ) Quote ( Stephen Montague @ March 28th 2023,22:17:23 )
"When I came to Ukraine, I knew that I would try to get as much information as I could, anything that would be helpful, and defect across lines," he said.
So he specifically collected information and facts:
"that many Russian prisoners of war had their genitals cut off with a knife, their stomachs were cut open. John also witnessed how the Ukrainian military do business in the sale of American weapons."
You want to discuss the reasons why he came and left the Ukrainian army.
But do not want to discuss the facts that he collected:
"that many Russian prisoners of war had their genitals cut off with a knife, their stomachs were cut open. John also witnessed how the Ukrainian military do business in the sale of American weapons."
Are you sure that Ukrainian soldiers did not do this?
Because "Ukraine defends itself," and whoever defends himself is always right and cannot do anything wrong. So?
and what "facts" are they? video evidence or just his word Coward? you seen this evidence Coward?
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 27th 2023,22:25:31 ) Meet the new leader of the Scottish nationalists!
37-year-old Hamza Yousaf led the Scottish National Party and becomes the First Minister of Scotland.
It's funny that now the Pakistani will fight for the collapse of the UK against the Hindu Rishi Sunak!
It's almost as if people's ethnicity and background don't define them but competence does...
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Quote ( Stephen Montague @ March 28th 2023,22:31:44 )
and what "facts" are they? video evidence or just his word Coward? you seen this evidence Coward?
All the UN investigations that have recently been published here are also based on the words of people. They did not provide photos and videos. But people from the UN made their conclusions on these words.
You can read them on the UN website.
There are accusations against both the Russian side and the Ukrainian side.
But you need more than the UN investigators?
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I really find the Russian storyline very hard to believe.
From what I gather the idea the Russian view is this: The Ukrainians people actually wanted the Russians to invade, because their current government is evil.
But if that were true, the war would have been over long ago. If the Ukrainians wanted the Russians there, the Russians would have won.
And we can argue about this or that, why one party is to blame for this detail or that party is to blame for that, but to me that all seems really unimportant. What is most important is what the Ukrainians people want and I really expect most Ukrainians to hate Russia now. I know I would if I was living there.
Wars are horrible and should be avoided.
Did the world become better by Russia invading Ukraine?
Did the people of Ukraine become happy?
Did the people of the West and Russia grow closer?
Russia should leave Ukraine and people should go back home and live in peace.
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 28th 2023,22:22:21 ) China is already on the side of Russia.
China is pragmatic... Ukraine is not their business. China buys cheap raw materials and supplies for it mirrors and beads.
And China wants this to stay like that. It is not in China´s interest to have strong rich Russia... poor Russia is easier to plunder.
China has new colony. And Russia has no other option.
https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/exports/china
There is no product.
Where is no product, there is no added value.
Where is no added value, there is no space for growth.
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 28th 2023,22:22:21 ) Russia is now on the defensive
In Ukraine.. Ohh poor Russia.. Needs Chinese protection from big bad Ukraine. :D
You said all is well and Russia is badass and your nukes were all you need.
Ridiculous logic, like everything you bring.
Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 28th 2023,22:22:21 ) China is already on the side of Russia.
China will eat you up, just like you have eaten others. :)
Ill pop the fancy champagne when that happens. ;)
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Quote ( Lee Ifans @ March 28th 2023,22:35:29 ) It's almost as if people's ethnicity and background don't define them but competence does...
It's just an interesting analogy to the very famous Indo-Pakistani standoff.
For those who know more than they write in large letters on the front pages of newspapers.
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Quote ( Atli Thor Johannesson @ March 28th 2023,22:41:44 )
In Ukraine.. Ohh poor Russia.. Needs Chinese protection from big bad Ukraine. :D
Russia needs more than Ukraine.
Russia has said this more than once.
Russia, like China, like many other countries in the world, is tired of the fact that the gendarme of the entire planet is the United States and NATO.
What the US and NATO determine - which of the countries are "bad" and which are "good". Who should be punished militarily, and who should be sanctioned.
Russia and China are beginning to build other world relations.
For example, a world without military alliances.
Or that all nuclear countries keep their weapons only on their own territory.
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Quote ( Allard Swart @ March 28th 2023,22:39:48 ) What is most important is what the Ukrainians people want and I really expect most Ukrainians to hate Russia now. I know I would if I was living there.
There has already been a similar story in the recent history of Russia.
Two wars in Chechnya.
When Chechnya was given independence from an ordinary Caucasian republic, it turned into a bunch of drug dealers, weapons and people.
When terrorist attacks began in Moscow, they blew up houses, hospitals, schools, theaters.
Russia began to eradicate terrorists in Chechnya.
True, the West called them "rebels".
And then everyone told us that the proud Chechen people would never forget how a Russian soldier killed freedom-loving Chechens.
That Chechen cities will always be ruins.
Look at the footage from Chechen cities now.
Chechnya is a republic that fully supports the policies of Putin (who just ended the Chechen war).
Therefore, everything is not as it seems now.
Quote ( Allard Swart @ March 28th 2023,22:39:48 ) Russia should leave Ukraine and people should go back home and live in peace.
In February 2022, it entered to protect the territories of the Donetsk Independent Republic and Luhansk Independent Republic.
And now it is the territory of Russia.
Russia cannot withdraw from its own territory.
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 28th 2023,22:43:00 ) It's just an interesting analogy to the very famous Indo-Pakistani standoff.
No, that's a simile not an analogy.
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Quote ( Tomas Dederle @ March 28th 2023,22:41:30 )
China is pragmatic... Ukraine is not their business.
Yes, China is interested in world hegemony.
China is interested in Taiwan.
China knows that Taiwan will have to fight the US.
and now China is choosing Russia as its accomplice, because together it is easier for us to win back Taiwan for China.
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Quote ( Atli Thor Johannesson @ March 28th 2023,22:41:44 ) China will eat you up, just like you have eaten others. :)
Better look - who and how will eat Europe.
500 million people in Europe
There are 5 billion people in South America, Africa and Asia.
Whose market is more interesting for China?
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 28th 2023,22:48:59 ) Russia and China are beginning to build other world relations. For example, a world without military alliances.
Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 28th 2023,22:22:21 ) China is no longer neutral, as it was a year ago. China is already on the side of Russia.
Interesting explanation of the fact, that China does not supply weapons to Russia. Russia hopes in military alliance with China, Chine does not want it.
And this proclamation seems to me much closer to "neutral" status than your hope and wishful statements that China is on Russian side.
“China did not create the crisis. It is not a party to the crisis, and has not provided weapons to either side of the conflict,” said embassy spokesperson Liu Pengyu.
China just want the cheap resources. China is the only one now who buys from Russia, so China can dictate the conditions. China just want to grow. China is smart. Russia is not. It shifted itself into position of desperate aggressor...who is forced to sell cheap to become cheaper
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China aren't going to side with Russia over Ukraine, China wants to be able to continue to export billions of dollars of goods to the west, and they aren't about to risk that, what they will do is take advantage of the economic sanctions of Russia and buy from Russia on the cheap, which means they make even bigger profits on the goods they sell to the west
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Quote ( Tomas Dederle @ March 28th 2023,23:16:51 ) Interesting explanation of the fact, that China does not supply weapons to Russia. Russia hopes in military alliance with China, Chine does not want it.
You yourself came up with the idea that Russia needs a military alliance with China?
Or read in the European media?
Russia and China need technology that they lack.
And we will exchange these technologies.
Which will be used, including for military purposes.
But this is not a military alliance.
Quote ( Tomas Dederle @ March 28th 2023,23:16:51 ) so China can dictate the conditions. China just want to grow. China is smart.
Yes, now we supply our resources to China.
And China does not call our Russian gas "aggressive".
And he does not say that we "use gas as a weapon."
Why?
As a result, China is smart and Europe is stupid.
Europe abandoned cheap Russian gas and began to buy expensive American gas.
China does not buy expensive American, but buys cheap Russian.
Therefore, soon European goods will become so expensive that no one will need them, because there will be cheap Chinese ones.
China will rise, Europe will fall.
Who did you hurt by giving up Russian resources?
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Dmitry, what happened in Chechnya doesn't prove what is right and wrong in Ukraine.
And countries shouldn't invade each other. So what happened in Chechnya wasn't the best way to resolve the situation anyway. Just the easiest for Russia.
If I follow your reasoning Poland should just invade Kaliningrad. And then just say: 'We support an independant Kalingrad and Kalingrad is now a part of Poland'
What gives Russia the right to invade Ukraine?
Why is it right for Russia to invade Ukraine but wrong for Poland to invade Kalingrad?
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Quote ( Stephen Montague @ March 28th 2023,23:21:47 ) China aren't going to side with Russia over Ukraine, China wants to be able to continue to export billions of dollars of goods to the west, and they aren't about to risk that, what they will do is take advantage of the economic sanctions of Russia and buy from Russia on the cheap, which means they make even bigger profits on the goods they sell to the west
You didn't read the documents well after the Xi-Putin meeting.
Xi reaffirmed Russia's security demands and reaffirmed demands to remove all nuclear missiles from the possession countries.
It's more than just siding with Russia.
This means standing up against the US and NATO.
Russia takes control of nuclear power in China.
This means that Russia will build even more nuclear power plants.
China will develop technologies in Russia.
It is necessary to read the documents, and not to believe the headlines of the European media. They can deceive you.
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Quote ( Allard Swart @ March 28th 2023,23:30:59 ) What gives Russia the right to invade Ukraine?
In December 2021, Russia published its security requirements.
In which she proposed to start discussing these requirements.
Discuss between Russia, the US and NATO.
Putin openly said that if these requirements were ignored, Russia would have a "military-technical response."
If you are interested - what was included in these requirements, I can write, but it will probably be more correct if you try to find it yourself.
These requirements were not even offered to start discussing.
Most likely assuming that Russia is bluffing or, as usual, just says and does nothing.
Russia did.
On February 24, Putin detailed the justification for the start of the special military operation.
Have you not read this text?
Perhaps in this text you will find answers to your question.
In a way, I understand you.
When you see how on the street one man approaches another and hits him in the face - you certainly react that the person who hit him is a scoundrel and an "aggressor".
But maybe try to find out - what were the reasons for what you saw?
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So the best reason for Russia's invasion is: Russia felt threatened by NATO?
What was so dangerous about NATO? A lot of Europe had very close ties to Russia before the war. Europe wouldn't have supported a war against Russia, I don't even think the US would have supported that idea.
So what is the problem?
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I also find your analogy kind of telling of how accepteable you find violence. I have to think up some really strange scenarios to make it right for me to walk up to someone and punch them in the face.
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What would have been best for Russia and the world, would have been a world where we grew closer and worked together. Cooperation is the road to a bright future, war isn't. And Russia is the one who chose war.
The West was not united against Russia. There were other paths. And they would have been better.
For Russia.
For the West.
And above all for Ukraine.
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Quote ( Allard Swart @ March 29th 2023,00:07:59 ) So the best reason for Russia's invasion is: Russia felt threatened by NATO?
What was so dangerous about NATO? A lot of Europe had very close ties to Russia before the war. Europe wouldn't have supported a war against Russia, I don't even think the US would have supported that idea.
So what is the problem?
After World War II, the West felt threatened by the Soviet Union.
How far this was justified or far-fetched now will not be clarified.
But NATO, as a military bloc of Western countries, was created first. It is a fact.
In response, the Soviet Union created the Warsaw Pact military bloc.
In fact, the confrontation in Europe and the world of two main forces.
There were both American and Soviet troops in Europe.
For example, in West and East Germany.
In 1991 the USSR collapsed.
The Warsaw Pact was abolished.
Soviet troops withdrew from European countries.
1. Why didn't NATO dissolve as well?
2. Why didn't American troops leave European countries, such as Germany?
Already in 1999, Poland joined NATO.
Look - how many and which countries joined NATO after 1997.
It has always been in NATO documents that Russia is a potential adversary.
In Russia, this was well known.
Caribbean crisis. Nuclear confrontation between the USA and the USSR.
When NATO wanted to deliver nuclear missiles to Turkey, and the USSR to Cuba.
Turkey now has American nuclear missiles.
One of Russia's demands is the return of NATO countries by 1997.
Why doesn't NATO want to discuss this? Does NATO consider Russia its enemy?
Quote ( Allard Swart @ March 29th 2023,00:07:59 ) I also find your analogy kind of telling of how accepteable you find violence. I have to think up some really strange scenarios to make it right for me to walk up to someone and punch them in the face.
My analogy is that you shouldn't judge by the last shots.
We first find out what was the basis of such a fight.
Quote ( Allard Swart @ March 29th 2023,00:07:59 ) The West was not united against Russia. There were other paths. And they would have been better.
I completely agree.
Again.
In December 2021, Russia published a document in which it indicated what it did not like about the current situation in Europe.
And Russia wanted to start a DISCUSSION - how this can be corrected in order to comply with the desire of all parties for their security.
Has the West considered that Russia is such a poor, weak and helpless country that it has no right to declare its security demands?
If no one wants to start negotiations, then they have to be forced into such negotiations.
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Quote ( Ihor Rusnak @ March 28th 2023,17:46:37 ) Niels's poll knocked me out of the rut. I think I've had enough of this thread and this game. I hug everyone who supports Ukraine. Best wishes from Ukraine.
I am sorry for that Ihor, i dont know what to say.
I wish the best for you, your familie and friends.
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the Warsaw pact wasn't an alliance, those nations didn't want to be a part of the USSR they didn't get to act independently, this is why they were so quick to join Nato the first chance they got, are you seriously that fucking stupid or what?
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Dmitry: Had Russia sought a closer links to Europe through trade and cooperation all of these things you mention wouldn't have mattered. Who cares that countries are a part of NATO? We would just have been trading allies. And Ukraine would profit since most of the trade would have gone through it.
The US would probably be fine with it too. And even if they weren't, what could they really do to stop it? While the US is far more powerful than Europe, losing their backing would be very painful.
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As to the analogy: In this case we were in a world where we were moving towards closer connections between countries through trade. Because of the war in Ukraine the world is now divided. This is horrible for the human race and everyone stands to lose. Not even to speak about the horrible things that are happening to the people of Ukraine who don't deserve this.
Russia attacked, not the West. They threw the punch while there were still words to be spoken. Russia was in the wrong and the results is the deaths of thousands.
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The thing with demands is this: If both parties have demands that don't match, you'll have to discuss about what is right. What you don't do is start killing people because you think you can win.
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Quote ( Allard Swart @ March 29th 2023,00:51:05 ) What you don't do is start killing people because you think you can win.
+1000
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People on one side of this unnecessary argument, are horrified by the actions of one big aggressive nation, attacking another neighboring smaller nation,, horrified by the unnecessary deaths brought on by the big nation and want to support the nation being slaughtered, while defending their home.
Then you have the other side of this unnecessary argument, where some people glorify the big nation, celebrate it's attacks, even deliberate attacks on innocent civilians.
They argue, lie and seem to be willing to do anything to justify what is happening in Ukraine.
There is no question who is morally on the right side of the line here!
Yet, some other people feel the need to shut this thread down, giving the aggression celebrators another "win", because that's the whole point of theirs, to shut down all support for Ukraine.
So, "thanks" Niels, (sarcasm may apply a bit), I don't know your intentions, but the potential consequence is another "win" for today's Nazi equivalent, (at least if you judge the Russians by their actions, not their words.)
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