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Tema: [F1] 2022 season |
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Quote ( Eric Ingraham @ November 15th 2022,19:16:10 ) Quote ( Jorrit Boer @ November 15th 2022,18:30:35 )
How do you know he didn't have a legitimate reason?
Because it's a team sport and you don't defy team orders. There is literally no legitimate reason which could possibly exist which would justify his decision and the fallout which it will bring within the team.
That's an opinion... Your reasoning now boils down to: I say he doesn't have a legitimate reason, because there cannot be a legitimate reason, because I say so...
You're arguing in a circle here...
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All F1 drivers have high self-confidence, big ego hence ALWAYS think they can piss furthest (and there's NO single boy that didn't ever play that game against another ;) ) ) Ask Latifi if he would be WC contender in the best car and no doubt he will answer positively...
Furthermore what happens on track opens an account that appearantly can ONLY be settled on track and simply not by conversation.. They are ALL like that and always have been...
Best example is Senna vs Prost in '89 & '90; - for those old enough to remember (and for those not: 100% worth to look back!) - it brought Prost the '89 title and Senna the '90, while both crashed into eachother (being teammates) DELIBERATELY Senna (Q2) even announced upfront in '90 that Prost (Q1) would NOT make it throught the 1st corner in 1st position.
Childish? Absolutely, but these guys play who can piss furthest every race weekend.. Mostly since they were kids. How often did YOU played that game after a couple of times, hence what do you expect? ;)
Other nowadays example: Alonso vs Hamilton,. I assume each and everyone noticed by now Alonso does anything to piss off Hamilton, no matter the circumstances. Fighting for position? Fine but I rather crash together then let you pass. Being lapped (by Hamilton); it always takes a bit more time and corners than strictly necessary...
Not to downplay VER childish behaviour over literally nothing. If it was Monaco than the account isn't settled yet..
But like Hamilton did with Bottas; he just showed who can piss furthest when it matters and acknowledged Bottas hit some side mushrooms half a tit further than the tree,,, Verstappen still has to learn that...
And you know what? I'm right because I can piss furthest :P
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I am saying that *there is no legitimate reason, in his role as a team member at RBR, for him to do what he did*. He was on track as a driver for Red Bull. He doesn’t have autonomy. His own engineer told him to let Checo through. That was the team's wishes. And if he has a personal reason to do it then the racetrack is not the place to get his pound of flesh.
Why don’t you propose any legitimate reason for denying his teammate a point in an otherwise meaningless race for Max. And don’t say only Max can know the answer, otherwise you are the one arguing in circles. Just give us a theory or some ideas from your side - why would this be justifiable?
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#784 parašyta 2022-Lap-16, 02:54:10 (paskutinis taisymas 2022-Lap-16, 02:54:48, taisė Josh Clark)
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Quote ( Jay De Snoo @ November 16th 2022,02:27:47 ) Furthermore what happens on track opens an account that appearantly can ONLY be settled on track and simply not by conversation.. They are ALL like that and always have been...
Yeah but all your examples contain drivers who are fighting directly against eachother. Max has nothing more to gain, he's not fighting against Checo at all. All that's left for him to gain this season is a tiny sliver of credibility by showing courtesy to the team and team mate that helped him achieve his goals. If he doesn't want that then whatever, it's his life. It does paint a poor picture though.
For the record, I couldn't care less. Never liked Red Bull, and Max as a person (as portrayed on media) has always seemed like a prat to me. On the flip side, I've never liked team orders and don't really think Max should be forced to do something like that on track. But similarly, some team orders are just common sense. The Ocon/Alonso swap for example... Ocon backchatting his engineer is completely fair, he earned the position he had and deserved to defend it. But the sensible thing to do, which they did do, was to allow Alonso to pass and attempt to climb further on better tyres to help their championship fight with McLaren.
I'd like to think helping your team clinch 1st and 2nd in the drivers championship when you have the freedom to do so is also common sense, but what do I know.
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Quote ( Josh Clark @ November 16th 2022,02:54:10 ) Quote ( Jay De Snoo @ November 16th 2022,02:27:47 )
Furthermore what happens on track opens an account that appearantly can ONLY be settled on track and simply not by conversation.. They are ALL like that and always have been...
Yeah but all your examples contain drivers who are fighting directly against eachother. Max has nothing more to gain, he's not fighting against Checo at all. All that's left for him to gain this season is a tiny sliver of credibility by showing courtesy to the team and team mate that helped him achieve his goals. If he doesn't want that then whatever, it's his life. It does paint a poor picture though.
For the record, I couldn't care less. Never liked Red Bull, and Max as a person (as portrayed on media) has always seemed like a prat to me. On the flip side, I've never liked team orders and don't really think Max should be forced to do something like that on track. But similarly, some team orders are just common sense. The Ocon/Alonso swap for example... Ocon backchatting his engineer is completely fair, he earned the position he had and deserved to defend it. But the sensible thing to do, which they did do, was to allow Alonso to pass and attempt to climb further on better tyres to help their championship fight with McLaren.
I'd like to think helping your team clinch 1st and 2nd in the drivers championship when you have the freedom to do so is also common sense, but what do I know.
For the record because of flag and as stated more than once for the same reason: I'm a F1 fan and never supported any team or driver in particular (appart from Senna maybe) and that includes VER/Max.
My only point was; racing drivers settle things that occured on track also on track and not in some sort of meeting room. Just enforced with some spectacular F1 moments... But I could have mentioned dozens of others including of lower irrelevant racing classes with just the same attitude, interview statement and results...
For some reason we - non racing drivers - don't clearly understand, they (racing drivers) rather kick eachother off track than having a talk over beers and decide it wasn't that worse...
Maybe relatively normal (whatever that is) people shouldn't think of their, but a bit futher of anyone else behalf?!
So do I think Max should let Checo pass? Absolutely!
But do I also think the account is settled ? Well - whatever the reason - it SHOULD be a given there's a debt since Abu Dhabi last year! So there's no doubt for me that somehow has to be cleared someday.
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Quote ( Eric Ingraham @ November 16th 2022,02:42:17 ) I am saying that *there is no legitimate reason, in his role as a team member at RBR, for him to do what he did*. He was on track as a driver for Red Bull. He doesn’t have autonomy. His own engineer told him to let Checo through. That was the team's wishes. And if he has a personal reason to do it then the racetrack is not the place to get his pound of flesh.
Why don’t you propose any legitimate reason for denying his teammate a point in an otherwise meaningless race for Max. And don’t say only Max can know the answer, otherwise you are the one arguing in circles. Just give us a theory or some ideas from your side - why would this be justifiable?
Why would I have to name a legitimate reason? All I'm saying is that as long as we don't know his reasons, we can't really judge them. As far as I know, he hasn't gone public with his reasons and so none of us know whether they're any good...
That is definitely not arguing in circles and I think you (should) know that...
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Quote ( Jorrit Boer @ November 16th 2022,10:33:11 ) All I'm saying is that as long as we don't know his reasons, we can't really judge them.
We don't need to know his reasons Jorrit, we can judge his actions. If you were walking in the park and kicked an old man sitting on a bench, should I care what your reasons were?
You are suggesting that because we don't know Max's reasons then it could be appropriate. And because Max won't explain himself then we will never know. Try committing a crime and doing that in front of a judge and see if that's a sufficient justification. You haven't presented any rational explanation for what happened. Try that next.
And listen, I know he's Dutch. I think he's one of the all-time great drivers. I just don't agree with what he did.
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Lots of rumours that Binotto is being booted for Vasseur. Great news. With Vasseur's links to Leclerc and Nicholas Todt (CL's manager), the team is bound to be built around him like it should
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Well as soon as Williams can announce Logan all the 2023 grille will be set.
Is it true Mick is in talks with Mercedes for a possible test driver job?
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Quote ( Marcelo Ascencio @ November 17th 2022,16:43:28 ) Is it true Mick is in talks with Mercedes for a possible test driver job?
I believe they are. Merc wants to test some new crash systems and couldn't think of a better driver to test them out. From what I understand Hamboi has something to do with it, he is into blonds after all.
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Ricciardo apparently confirmed as Redbull reserve for 2023.... Checks date to confirm not 1st April...
Ok then...
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Quote ( Eric Ingraham @ November 16th 2022,15:50:06 ) Quote ( Jorrit Boer @ November 16th 2022,10:33:11 )
All I'm saying is that as long as we don't know his reasons, we can't really judge them.
We don't need to know his reasons Jorrit, we can judge his actions. If you were walking in the park and kicked an old man sitting on a bench, should I care what your reasons were?
You are suggesting that because we don't know Max's reasons then it could be appropriate. And because Max won't explain himself then we will never know. Try committing a crime and doing that in front of a judge and see if that's a sufficient justification. You haven't presented any rational explanation for what happened. Try that next.
And listen, I know he's Dutch. I think he's one of the all-time great drivers. I just don't agree with what he did.
You were the one bringing up his reasons and claiming that there couldn't possibly be legitimate ones and I was the one merely questioning that.
Are you so angry that you are willing to sacrifice your integrity by secretly trying to move the goalposts?
I did not suggest that because we don't know his reasons they could be legitimate. Just that you can't judge their legitimacy. You are again being dishonest.
You seem to think that whether I were to be able to make up a legitimate reason has any bearing on whether his reasons were legitimate or not and that is simply not the case. I think that any of us making up reasons to either shoot down or defend him with is a rather pointless excercise. Also, legality does not always equal morality, so your courtroom analogy does not work. We weren't talking about whether his move was legal, because it clearly was...
His nationality has got nothing to do with this, nor his quality as a driver. I don't think either of those were really up for debate here.
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Judged on some reactions, it is only a good thing that we didn't have internet back in the days when Prost and Senna were teammates ....
This is all childsplay compared with what those guys did ...... And I loved it to be honest .... F1 has really become a sport for pussies now a days.
;-P
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Jorrit only one of us seems upset and it’s not me.
Max has had every opportunity to explain himself and he won’t. You seem to be approaching your point the same way. A little explanation would go a long way. But it’s not being given despite repeated requests for it. It’s a one way discussion it seems. Oh well. I guess we must form our own opinions instead since one side won’t give any explanation.
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Quote ( MG van Rensburg @ November 18th 2022,13:07:06 ) Ricciardo apparently confirmed as Redbull reserve for 2023.... Checks date to confirm not 1st April...
Ok then...
I’ve read that RIC will be the “third driver” and Liam Lawson will be the reserve. So Daniel would do any car exhibition and media appearances and Liam would step in for RBR or AT if one of the four main drivers was not fit to race.
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Quote ( Eric Ingraham @ November 18th 2022,16:06:44 ) I guess we must form our own opinions
Yep, true words ! And we can only respect one another for that if we can give some meaning to the spoken words or opions. So I fully agree.
For me personally it has zero importance. I do think that Max should have given that position to Perez because he has nothing to lose anyway, but on the other hand I am a big fan of the good old rivalry between teammates. It does only spice up the races.
As a F1 fan I wouldn't mind if all teammates could drink each others blood. hehehe ;-P
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Uneventful race today, but good seb got some attention. And nice tire management for Lec
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So at the endo of the season, it looked like the Aston Martin was the 6th best car... either that or Seb made the difference (biased, I know) Having scored as much or more than the last 3 teams..
But it looked more consistent and even faster than the Alfa Romeos whose performance went downhill in the latter part of the season..
2023 to me looks to be very silver.. Ferrari I hope they pick up enough to start really good, and to keep it up, Always dropping performance as season goes on..
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Quote ( Marcelo Ascencio @ November 20th 2022,19:27:18 ) 2023 to me looks to be very silver..
Do you also feel this race might have been a bit hide and seek by merc?
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Quote ( Floris Maljers @ November 20th 2022,19:31:21 ) Do you also feel this race might have been a bit hide and seek by merc?
they showed some pace at the start, George had a feeling they were quicker than Carlos, but this time Ferrari strategy was done right, Lewis got a random..
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as well rumors of Schumacher going to Mercedes
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