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Onderwerp: Russia has attacked Ukraine! |
18311 antwoorden
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Quote ( Darryl Kucmerowski @ February 24th 2022,23:36:01 ) We are, by nature, selfish and self serving.
I think this might be more true for us Americans than humanity as a whole, thanks to how our society is structured.
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It seems inconceivable to me that we, as human species, developed complex technologies, created different theories and philosophies in order to understand human nature, discovered the importance of reasoning, and so on. Yet, we still cannot contain our tribalistic attitudes and sentiments that are being fed by our primitive impulses. Instead of cooperating, living according to reason and being in harmony with those who differ from us, we keep these seeds of enmity that only leads to worsened human conditions. I wonder what we really promise to our children, a constant fear of a potential nuclear war? Is this really where we got after all of the progress and developments, mostly in science and philosophy, which should have helped us to remind that that our petty greediness and destructive passions mean nothing in the face of Nature? We had to figure this out centuries ago, but it seems that with every century, we keep failing more. We have the means to make this insignificant, dot-like planet which we call our home a better, bearable place, but somehow we decide not to.
My condolences to all of Ukrainians who lost their friends and relatives in this war.
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Putin must be stopped. My hope is the over riding will of democracy, friendship and peace will win the day, but the defence of Ukraine's sovereignty - and that of our Nato allies in the baltics and other surrounding former Soviet states - must be protected. This one man's obsession with turning back the clock 40 years must be brought to an abrupt end. I found his speeches this week to be quite chilling, dunno about anyone else here. I am not so sure all these sanctions will be enough to deter a man who cares little for his people or the country, his only care is for dictatorial power. I feel at the moment that words and sanctions are not going to be enough and our actions among allies feels very laboured. Of course, everybody is aware of the might of his nuclear weaponry but we can't just let this man steam roll his way through Eastern Europe.
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Quote ( Samoeni Albanalopolis @ February 24th 2022,21:41:45 ) Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ February 24th 2022,21:12:52 )
I think it was for the purpose of not being invaded by Russia... You believe that? I actually didn’t, until, well, the country without NATO troops in it got, um, invaded by Russia.
Up until recently Putin always applied a policy of responding to NATO actions with equal actions. We put troops in Poland the Baltic states, Putins puts troops close to them and maybe flies around some of his MiG fighters to show off. Tit for tat. But that really isn’t the case anymore today. People who try to argue that the invasion is provoked because Poland and Estonia have invited US soldiers into their territory have really lost their sense of normality, sorry.
You need to face it, Ukraine was making friends in the west because they wanted to make friends in the west. Putin is afraid of that because if Ukraine succeeds, he knows it will influence Russian people into wanting a similar system too, and it would mean the end of oligarchy.
I’m not denying that there is western propaganda, but boy, Russian propaganda sure is taking a bigger toll.
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I just finished the Book Never from Ken Follet and the situation in Ukraine is scary...
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They say the first casualty of war is usually the truth. There will be propaganda on both sides. The only thing that is certain is that soldiers don't start wars, they die in wars. Politicians are the ones that start wars and usually the ones to end them too. I really hoped that Europe was past that but apparently not. I hope the conflict gets a quick resolution without too much horrible waste of life.
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I can't see the EU/UK/US doing anything meaningful here. If Putin installs a puppet government in Kyiv and withdraws enough troops he'll be allowed to get on with it. Anyone in Ukraine who thinks international troops or military assets are going to be used to help them is in line for a major disappointment.
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Quote ( Iain Bartholomew @ February 25th 2022,01:31:01 ) I can't see the EU/UK/US doing anything meaningful here. If Putin installs a puppet government in Kyiv and withdraws enough troops he'll be allowed to get on with it. Anyone in Ukraine who thinks international troops or military assets are going to be used to help them is in line for a major disappointment. That's the trouble, the alternative to sanctions and suchlike or just doing nothing is pretty much a declaration of war against Russia. Putin's been pretty clear about the consequences if anyone interferes in Ukraine, I don't think anybody's ready to call his hand and see if he's bluffing yet, and I don't think he's in the mood to look like he's going to run scared from the West.
Edit: The NATO membership issue is the real kicker with Ukraine, and will also be the deciding factor in whether he decides to stop at Ukraine.
Quote ( Samoeni Albanalopolis @ February 24th 2022,21:41:45 ) it was Europe who let Ukraine down Samoeni makes a very good point here, Europe and NATO have let Ukraine down badly, not necessarily now, but in the years leading up to this, it was always on the cards while Ukraine was left in limbo like they have been.
Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ February 25th 2022,00:58:42 ) You need to face it, Ukraine was making friends in the west because they wanted to make friends in the west. Putin is afraid of that because if Ukraine succeeds, he knows it will influence Russian people into wanting a similar system too, and it would mean the end of oligarchy. And Jasper, you're right on the money too. The combination of what you and Samoeni said have created the recipe for this disaster. Europe and Nato should've welcomed Ukraine with open arms years ago and all this, and the situation in Crimea may have been avoided. Tense for sure, but possibly avoided. The outcome couldn't have been any worse though.
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Quote ( David Andrewartha @ February 25th 2022,01:44:24 ) That's the trouble, the alternative to sanctions and suchlike or just doing nothing is pretty much a declaration of war against Russia. Putin's been pretty clear about the consequences if anyone interferes in Ukraine, I don't think anybody's ready to call his hand and see if he's bluffing yet, and I don't think he's in the mood to look like he's going to run scared from the West.
Yeah, not really interested in finding out how mad MAD really is either (sorry, when I'm at a loss for words I resort to those kinds of quips).
Tbf, up to a certain degree (aka pre-Crimea) I had an understanding for the Russian position. I have been taught in history lessons about the Cuban crisis (With the UdSSR stationing nuclear warheads on Cuba) and how that nearly caused a nuclear war which was only prevented by proper negotiations (and the removal of warheads from Cuba and Turkey). So I can see why Russia could have felt threatened about the prospect of the Ukraine joining the NATO (and I didn't see the need for it either as long as the Budapest Memorandum was held by all sides).
However, anything that has escalated since Crimea (and especially in the last few months) seems fairly one-sided to me. Several NATO members expressed that they won't take in Ukraine to appease Russia. What more can you wish for? The "Undoing history and restoring Russia's old sphere of influence" Putin was talking about on Monday will lead to unimagineable suffering.
I'm fairly dumbfounded of seeing Europe in a situation that it was last in like what? 80 Years ago? I feel sorry for all people that have to suffer under this (which will be mainly Ukranians I fear, but some Russian people will also lose loved ones for this pointless thing). I hope it just doesn't escalate any further because anything that happens beyond Ukraine borders will just be vile.
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So, two Russian players wrote in this topic. One is outright putinist, another seemingly isn't, but firing barrels of same old shit of Russian propaganda about "internal Ukrainian conflict" and "suppression of Russians in Ukraine". Most gproers say people are not guilty, it's politicians, so let's stay friends. No, it doesn't work like that, responsibility is shared, people deserve those who rule them. Russian people had many occasions to at least VOTE differently, but they didn't and they were (mostly) VERY happy with Crimea annexation. For Ukrainians to again accept Russians as friends, they would have to sincerely repent and apologize. They must feel utter shame, same as Germans felt after Hitler and undergo similar de-putinization processes.
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Quote ( Tim Wagner @ February 25th 2022,02:05:33 ) Yeah, not really interested in finding out how mad MAD really is either (sorry, when I'm at a loss for words I resort to those kinds of quips).
Tbf, up to a certain degree (aka pre-Crimea) I had an understanding for the Russian position. I have been taught in history lessons about the Cuban crisis (With the UdSSR stationing nuclear warheads on Cuba) and how that nearly caused a nuclear war which was only prevented by proper negotiations (and the removal of warheads from Cuba and Turkey). So I can see why Russia could have felt threatened about the prospect of the Ukraine joining the NATO (and I didn't see the need for it either as long as the Budapest Memorandum was held by all sides).
However, anything that has escalated since Crimea (and especially in the last few months) seems fairly one-sided to me. Several NATO members expressed that they won't take in Ukraine to appease Russia. What more can you wish for? The "Undoing history and restoring Russia's old sphere of influence" Putin was talking about on Monday will lead to unimagineable suffering.
I'm fairly dumbfounded of seeing Europe in a situation that it was last in like what? 80 Years ago? I feel sorry for all people that have to suffer under this (which will be mainly Ukranians I fear, but some Russian people will also lose loved ones for this pointless thing). I hope it just doesn't escalate any further because anything that happens beyond Ukraine borders will just be vile.
Totally agree Tim, I'm no politician but if ever there was a need for a demilitarized neutral zone to act as a buffer, and that would be respected as such by both sides I think Ukraine would be a prime example. That said though it wouldn't be fair on the Ukranian people and I don't think Putin would respect it any more than he has done with their sovereignty.
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I will express my opinion and tell it like it is.
Putin is a usurper. He and his entourage consider their property not only the entire country with resources and infrastructure, but also people as their slaves.
There are no elections in our country - it's all fiction. There are no independent courts and media.
During the years of Putin's rule, the country has degraded and become poorer. What is worth the fall of the ruble against the dollar. If before 2014 the rate was in the region of 30-35, then after the annexation of the Crimea it reached 80 and now the official rate is in the region of 86-87. It is difficult to imagine what will happen after the opening of the Moscow Exchange... The sanctions and actions of the authorities over the years have made us much poorer and it will definitely not be better now.
Everything that is happening now is terrible, but logical. Nobody had stopped him and his henchmen before.
Am I responsible as a citizen of Russia for the actions of the authorities? Yes and no. In fact, I can’t influence the situation in any way, my vote in the elections means nothing (the elections are completely falsified), it’s more expensive for me to go to a rally - people are simply beaten and put in jail. It's easy to be brave when you don't live in Putin's Russia.
I want to express my condolences to all the victims, although I understand that there is no sense in this.
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Quote ( Arkady Shemyakin @ February 25th 2022,02:38:41 ) I will express my opinion and tell it like it is.
Putin is a usurper. He and his entourage consider their property not only the entire country with resources and infrastructure, but also people as their slaves.
There are no elections in our country - it's all fiction. There are no independent courts and media.
During the years of Putin's rule, the country has degraded and become poorer. What is worth the fall of the ruble against the dollar. If before 2014 the rate was in the region of 30-35, then after the annexation of the Crimea it reached 80 and now the official rate is in the region of 86-87. It is difficult to imagine what will happen after the opening of the Moscow Exchange... The sanctions and actions of the authorities over the years have made us much poorer and it will definitely not be better now.
Everything that is happening now is terrible, but logical. Nobody had stopped him and his henchmen before.
Am I responsible as a citizen of Russia for the actions of the authorities? Yes and no. In fact, I can’t influence the situation in any way, my vote in the elections means nothing (the elections are completely falsified), it’s more expensive for me to go to a rally - people are simply beaten and put in jail. It's easy to be brave when you don't live in Putin's Russia.
I want to express my condolences to all the victims, although I understand that there is no sense in this.
I totally understand you brother. Dealing with an authoritarian regime and speaking out against it would get you in a real trouble. I firmly believe that many Russians are against the invasion. I can see it on social media, like in YouTube comment sections and Alexei Navalny's instagram. So, we shouldn't really put the blame on ordinary Russian people at all. Some Westerners may not be able to comprehend what it really means to live under such harsh conditions both politically and economically.
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Quote ( Sergei Gordov @ February 24th 2022,19:30:09 ) Quote ( Piotr Szmit @ February 24th 2022,19:09:14 )
What about 17.09.1939 When USSR attacks Poland with Nazist Germany? What about Katyń? What about The Holodomor on the Ukraine? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
Poland was not lucky to be between 2 big predators. What about gaining territories after the WW2 due to the USSR win?
Holodomor is a fake--not only Ukraine suffered from hunger then. Idiots force this meme.
Fake in what sense? That only 3.9 of the 5 million deaths were Ukrainians? Or do you subscribe to the "Holodomor Hoax" propaganda put out by Putin after the first annexations of Ukraine in 2014? 🤔 First the Soviets tried to genocide the Cossacks, then the Ukrainians, and now they claim it's all part of Russia.. 😅
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Quote ( David Andrewartha @ February 25th 2022,02:47:17 ) @Arkady Shemyakin (P10) I feel for you as much as I feel for @Aleksey Kondratenko (P1) I hope you both come out of this ok.
And what about people who think the opposite? Will you also feel for them too? :)
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I wish we were back to 1999 at least for a while, when the events in Yugoslavia occured. What a interesting opinions would we hear... What would you say if you were back in time? Putin wasn't agressor then (surprisingly). He should have been elected a little bit earlier to carry all the blames. But I think he and his people learned a lot from those events. And that was the first call. So before blaming him for his actions , think who made him agressor and how. And before labeling me as a Putinist I will say that I don't suppoort him. I haven't supported any politician during my life. And I think I did well. Because there isn't any who deserves to be trusted. It is all for naive people like many of what I see here.
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It's amazing how people are being so hypocritical. Did you manage to change your regimes when NATO were bombing Syria, Libia Yugoslavia??? Were you gathering 100 000 people in riots? Ahh, let me guess. You still don't understand that disturbs and riots are not made by normal people like you and me but by some political organisations that may have either political or financial interest in it...
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I read a lot of personalization in this forum for the responsability of the current war. Putin don't invade Ukrania, its the Russian Federation who did it. Russia will no longer tolerate more NATO troops in his borders, it became clear in 2008 in Georgia. The world is changing, USA has no longer the strenght of the past, and is focusing his forces around China, they not even defend his allies in Afganisthan, much less would defend Ukrania. Its all Geopolitics and History, blame Putin for the invasion its like blame Bush for the invasion of Irak and Afganistan, there are a whole country behind who support and encourage this decisions. Its nice to belive the opposite, but its not realistic.
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Quote ( Vitaly Sevov @ February 25th 2022,05:31:01 ) I wish we were back to 1999 at least for a while, when the events in Yugoslavia occured. What a interesting opinions would we hear... What would you say if you were back in time? Putin wasn't agressor then (surprisingly). He should have been elected a little bit earlier to carry all the blames. But I think he and his people learned a lot from those events. And that was the first call. So before blaming him for his actions , think who made him agressor and how. And before labeling me as a Putinist I will say that I don't suppoort him. I haven't supported any politician during my life. And I think I did well. Because there isn't any who deserves to be trusted. It is all for naive people like many of what I see here.
Which events in 1999? The end of the war? The wars in Yugoslavia started in 1991 when Slovenia and Croatia declared independence, followed by Bosnia and Kosovo.. Similar problem in that Serbia (Milosevic) wanted to stay in control of Yugoslavia, a Communist country made up of smaller parts (like the Soviet Union). Luckily the Soviet Union fell apart more peacefully, but now Putin is trying to get the old band back together.. after everyone else has moved on with their lives.. 🤔
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Quote ( Pablo Enrique Zeni @ February 25th 2022,06:11:30 ) I read a lot of personalization in this forum for the responsability of the current war. Putin don't invade Ukrania, its the Russian Federation who did it. Russia will no longer tolerate more NATO troops in his borders, it became clear in 2008 in Georgia. The world is changing, USA has no longer the strenght of the past, and is focusing his forces around China, they not even defend his allies in Afganisthan, much less would defend Ukrania. Its all Geopolitics and History, blame Putin for the invasion its like blame Bush for the invasion of Irak and Afganistan, there are a whole country behind who support and encourage this decisions. Its nice to belive the opposite, but its not realistic.
Except that Putin is basically in sole control, as a dictator, while Bush had Cheney and a bunch of other guys pushing him to get the US back into the Middle East.. 🤔
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#142 geplaatst Feb 25 2022, 06:39:02 (laatst aangepast Feb 25 2022, 06:51:29 door Jesús Brea)
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Quote ( Vitaly Sevov @ February 25th 2022,05:31:01 ) I wish we were back to 1999 at least for a while, when the events in Yugoslavia occured. What a interesting opinions would we hear... What would you say if you were back in time? Putin wasn't agressor then (surprisingly). He should have been elected a little bit earlier to carry all the blames. But I think he and his people learned a lot from those events. And that was the first call. So before blaming him for his actions , think who made him agressor and how. And before labeling me as a Putinist I will say that I don't suppoort him. I haven't supported any politician during my life. And I think I did well. Because there isn't any who deserves to be trusted. It is all for naive people like many of what I see here.
What the hell, you just justify this non sense because of past wars , really?? This and all past wars aren't necessary. The ones who are complaining about this attack I'm sure would complain about past wars too. There wasn't excuses before or now.
Humanity is so stupid that can kill themselfs for ego's, religion, money or whatever fucking excuse they can find.
Never learnt for past mistakes, and as society we will get what we deserve, annihilation
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Quote ( Arkady Shemyakin @ February 25th 2022,02:38:41 ) Putin is a usurper. He and his entourage consider their property not only the entire country with resources and infrastructure, but also people as their slaves.
There are no elections in our country - it's all fiction. There are no independent courts and media. All representatives of opposition are put in prison before elections. That's a way to ensure the result
The thing is... (and this is widely agreed in most countries), opposition is an integral part of Democracy. That's why democratic parliaments have the government and opposition sides
Quote ( Arkady Shemyakin @ February 25th 2022,02:38:41 ) Am I responsible as a citizen of Russia for the actions of the authorities? Yes and no. In fact, I can’t influence the situation in any way, my vote in the elections means nothing (the elections are completely falsified), it’s more expensive for me to go to a rally - people are simply beaten and put in jail. Here's an interesting fact:
During the first day 137 Ukraine fatalities During the first day 1 700 demonstrators arrested in Russia, some of which might not be seen ever again. So yes, it's not safe there either.
During first day also 100 000 Ukraine left their homes and started the refugee trip
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Do not turn to the Russians. They will only take revenge.
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I'm still wondering what are those crazy things that Ukraine did in Donbas, which caused this war (if you believe russian propaganda)? Even Russia admitted there was the genocide in Yougoslavia, but how can you prove it in Donbas?
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Our politics are stupid idiots.Believe me, the absolute majority is against this war and condemn Putin's actions. This is situation when some staged a war, and I am ashamed, not them.
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Big support for Ukrainians! Stop the war! Stop the war and start negotiations. All this is similar to the Nazi attack in 1941.
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Quote ( Alessandro Casagrande @ February 24th 2022,22:09:53 ) Whatever. Nothing can justify what Putin is doing. Even if he was right, by attacking Ukraine he is automatically wrong! I was listening to Zelensky this morning, during his speech he said "We were left alone". He talked about concrete help that they needed not just random words. Which make me come to my point, who promised what this poor man?
They used him as bait for their own personal agenda. And you know who I am referring to by this.
So sad man, it's really sad Ukrainians are suffering like this.
Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ February 25th 2022,00:58:42 ) You need to face it, Ukraine was making friends in the west because they wanted to make friends in the west. Putin is afraid of that because if Ukraine succeeds, he knows it will influence Russian people into wanting a similar system too, and it would mean the end of oligarchy. I totally agree with this, but this is the part I feel bad about. They knew the outcome, so why use Ukraine to add more fuel to the conflict. They basically made Ukraine believe that "We're coming to war with you if necessary" and that was never the case.
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Quote ( Samoeni Albanalopolis @ February 25th 2022,08:11:06 ) Which make me come to my point, who promised what this poor man?
US, UK and Russia promised Ukraine safety if they give up their nuclear arsenal ~30 years ago.
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