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Onderwerp: Covid vaccine |
480 antwoorden
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#273 geplaatst Jul 23 2021, 14:12:16 (laatst aangepast Jul 23 2021, 14:13:02 door Max Watson)
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Quote ( Ricardo Antunes @ July 23rd 2021,13:32:46 ) Can you clarify what your point is, Vitaly?
He's comparing those who believe the positive 'propaganda' surrounding the Covid vaccines to those who believed in anti-semitic propaganda in the early- to mid-twentieth century, in an effort to encourage us not to take governments' and scientists' words for granted.
Sadly it's not going to be very effective, as the comparison is ridiculous =]
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Quote ( Max Watson @ July 23rd 2021,14:12:16 ) Quote ( Ricardo Antunes @ July 23rd 2021,13:32:46 )
Can you clarify what your point is, Vitaly?
He's comparing those who believe the positive 'propaganda' surrounding the Covid vaccines to those who believed in anti-semitic propaganda in the early- to mid-twentieth century, in an effort to encourage us not to take governments' and scientists' words for granted.
Sadly it's not going to be very effective, as the comparison is ridiculous =]
Nice argument. Well, at least I made you lough :) But anyway ,I would be very thankful if you explain why is it so ridiculous?
I think that it is not going to be very effective just because of the governments' and scientists words that you mentioned. While there are a lot of other scientists that are being shut and censored. For example do you know Wolfgang Wodarg? There was a video completely translated from german to english but it disappeared and I could only find in german. They are proving that PCR test could not be used to diagnose Covid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ymer59vTrSA
Also going to the past :
"When Hitler and the Nazis came to power, these beliefs became the government ideology and were spread in publicly displayed posters, on the radio, in movies, in classrooms, and in newspapers. The Nazis began to put their ideology into practice with the support of German scientists who believed that the human race could be improved by limiting the reproduction of people considered "inferior." Beginning in 1933, German physicians were allowed to perform forced sterilizations, operations making it impossible for the victims to have children. Among the targets of this public program were Roma View This Term in the Glossary (Gypsies), an ethnic minority numbering about 30,000 in Germany, and handicapped individuals, including the mentally ill and people born deaf and blind. Also victimized were about 500 African-German children, the offspring of German mothers and African colonial soldiers in the Allied armies that occupied the German Rhineland region after World War I."
So, without joking. We all know what happened in the past. Don't you see similarities with Nowadays???
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Once again, I repeat the question. How do you think the people felt and were treated if they didn't believe the Nazi propaganda spread by posters, Radio and supported by the "holly" scientists?
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Quote ( Vitaly Sevov @ July 23rd 2021,13:27:13 )
I guess 100 years ago in your country the majority were also saying the same as you to the people who weren't affected by the propaganda regarding to the pure race and cleaning up the world of jewish, right?
Ah yes, a German guy speaks up and you immediately bring out some nazi whataboutism. Great argument, really.
Quote ( Vitaly Sevov @ July 23rd 2021,13:27:13 ) "Historically, conspiracy theories have been closely linked to prejudice, propaganda, witch hunts, wars, and genocides.[17][18][19][20]
Wait, are you seriously trying to use this Wikipedia article, which is linking the stuff nazis did to conspiracy theories, as a support for your conspiracy theories while at the same time denouncing me as being similar to nazis?
You're not making any sense, Vitaly.
Quote ( Vitaly Sevov @ July 23rd 2021,14:34:42 ) While there are a lot of other scientists that are being shut and censored. For example do you know Wolfgang Wodarg?
I'd like to know which "lot of other scientists" you're talking about.
Wodarg, who made a name for himself in Germany by spewing a whole load of easily falsifiable bullshit?
Since you seem so fond of Wikipedia, let me cite from his page:
"His comments on the COVID-19 pandemic drew criticism from German scientists and some German media outlets. According to the critics, Wodarg's claims largely contradicted the verifiable facts; some of his statements were neither verifiable nor falsifiable; and because the facts Wodarg presented had nothing to do with each other, his statements had proved to be misleading.[6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19] "
By the way, he also got himself kicked out from Transparency International (a non-profit association mainly fighting against corruption) because of his blatant bullshit.
Quote ( Vitaly Sevov @ July 23rd 2021,14:34:42 ) When Hitler and the Nazis came to power, these beliefs became the government ideology and were spread in publicly displayed posters, on the radio, in movies, in classrooms, and in newspapers
All I see is some nutjobs coming to power and using said power to spread their conspiracy theory even further. There are always some nutjobs, also among scientists, who will gladly claim whatever has the highest chance to make them rich, powerful and famous.
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Doesn't the one who plays the nazi card automatically lose the argument?
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#278 geplaatst Jul 23 2021, 15:01:24 (laatst aangepast Jul 23 2021, 15:02:43 door Max Watson)
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Quote ( Vitaly Sevov @ July 23rd 2021,14:34:42 ) But anyway ,I would be very thankful if you explain why is it so ridiculous?
It's not a good comparison in two respects. First, assuming you want your argument to be persuasive, it's not a good idea to compare the current issue to something utterly monstrous, which many feel was one of the darkest moments of human history.
The second problem is less psychological and more practical, in that you're trying to compare two things that are dissimilar. There is no doubt about the efficacy of vaccination in general - even if you don't believe the word of any newspaper or government. The complete eradication of smallpox and the near-complete eradication of polio, together with the continued protection offered to travellers who visit countries with endemic illnesses, leaves no room for doubt.
Is it wise to unquestioningly believe everything a government (or anyone) says? No, absolutely not. But this is not required for us to be confident in the efficacy of vaccines in general, or in this one in particular (initial data are already demonstrating the link between Covid and serious illness being broken in the majority of vaccinated individuals).
Is it possible that governments have non-altruistic reasons to push the vaccines as much as they can? Absolutely, but it's actually quite easy to see what these are: they want to open up their countries again for the sake of business, and be seen to be doing all that they can for public health in order to be re-elected.
Contrast the above with Nazi propaganda against the Jews, which had no long-term data showing harm to societies containing Jewish persons - just a collection of old fairy tales they dredged up to create a scapegoat for the very real societal problems of the time. This was not a campaign built on well-known facts, but on a wild fantasy of what a damaged and desperate Germany could become.
But, having gone to the effort to write this (after telling myself I wouldn't get involved in this thread), it's all about who you choose to believe. Many scientists have 'proven' the case for the Covid vaccine, and you choose not to believe them. If you then find a lone, dissenting voice who has 'proven' the opposite, on what grounds do you choose to believe them? Just because they're not part of the 'establishment', or because their views align with your own suspicions?
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Quote ( Vitaly Sevov @ July 23rd 2021,14:40:01 ) Once again, I repeat the question. How do you think the people felt and were treated if they didn't believe the Nazi propaganda spread by posters, Radio and supported by the "holly" scientists?
You are literally describing the anti-vax crowd.
Being lied to by other manipulating idiots about the dangers of a vaccine, with manipulating and fact twisting "posters and videos", when the true danger stems from the real infection, according to hard facts.
You are more or less, describing yourself.
Own goal scored. :)
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Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ July 23rd 2021,14:56:04 ) Doesn't the one who plays the nazi card automatically lose the argument?
There is an argument? :O
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Hey guys ... I don't know what you're talking about but I have Sputnik V. Now get on with the discussion.
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Quote ( Max Watson @ July 23rd 2021,15:01:24 ) It's not a good comparison in two respects. First, assuming you want your argument to be persuasive, it's not a good idea to compare it to something utterly monstrous, that many feel to be one of the darkest moments of human history.
It's only your opinion. Thank you. I think that what we are living now is also a pretty dark moment in human history.
Quote ( Max Watson @ July 23rd 2021,15:01:24 ) The second problem is less psychological and more practical, in that you're trying to compare two things that are dissimilar. There is no doubt about the efficacy of vaccination in general - even if you don't believe the word of any newspaper or government. The complete eradication of smallpox and the near-complete eradication of polio, together with the continued protection offered to travellers who visit countries with endemic illnesses, leaves no room for doubt.
I agree with you. The consequences are dissimilar but the way they both are executed are very similar which makes me think not everything is ok. Why so much propaganda if it's a Pandemic? People should decide by their own if they need the vax or not. Without any "help" from outside.
And to close the "forbidden" topic,as I can see nobody will answer my question. (By the way, why there are so many of them if we are living in Democracy?) I wanted to say that I have nothing against germans. I have a lot friends from Germany. The thing that made me think about that example is the people behaviour here in Spain. In my neighbourhood in particular. A lot of times while crossing with someone in the streets they were fainting, grimacing when seeing that I am not wearing the mask. Maybe in England it wasn't obligatory to wear it outside so you can't understand what me and a lot of people were living all that time. But nobody thinks deeper. I was healthy, no flue, just a normal person. But was treated as a allien or rubish. Maybe I am too sensitive, you say just don't care. Or say just put the mask on your face as everybody. Anyway that's not currect.
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Quote ( Max Watson @ July 23rd 2021,15:01:24 ) But, having gone to the effort to write this (after telling myself I wouldn't get involved in this thread), it's all about who you choose to believe. Many scientists have 'proven' the case for the Covid vaccine, and you choose not to believe them. If you then find a lone, dissenting voice who has 'proven' the opposite, on what grounds do you choose to believe them? Just because they're not part of the 'establishment', or because their views align with your own suspicions?
I believe nobody 100%. The only person I believe is myself. What I see and feel. My instinct.
I will not believe nothing that is spread massively. If I see the "a lone, dissenting voice " that is being censored that will attract my attention and logic. Why is it censored. And maybe I will believe it.
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Quote ( Vitaly Sevov @ July 23rd 2021,15:46:06 ) What I see and feel. My instinct
"Oddly" enough, you didn´t mention trusting your logic. :)
You can "feel" 2+2 = 5, you might even see it somewhere on Youtube... but your logic should really tell you otherwise. ;)
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Quote ( Vitaly Sevov @ July 23rd 2021,15:46:06 ) The only person I believe is myself.
What happens if you're wrong though? :O
Quote ( Vitaly Sevov @ July 23rd 2021,15:46:06 ) I will not believe nothing that is spread massively.
What shape is the Earth? What direction does the Sun rise from? These questions have an answer which is quite widely accepted. I'd love to hear your opinions on these matters.
Quote ( Vitaly Sevov @ July 23rd 2021,15:46:06 ) If I see the "a lone, dissenting voice " that is being censored that will attract my attention and logic. Why is it censored.
Sometimes, if only a few people believe something, they aren't censored, they just don't have a large enough audience to spread their way of thinking, or they don't even want to spread it.
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#286 geplaatst Jul 23 2021, 15:54:10 (laatst aangepast Jul 23 2021, 16:01:49 door Max Watson)
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Quote ( Vitaly Sevov @ July 23rd 2021,15:36:29 ) It's only your opinion. Thank you. I think that what we are living now is also a pretty dark moment in human history.
Not quite correct - I was talking about your argument being persuasive in the arena of public opinion. Whilst I didn't live through that time, and neither did you, I believe the vast majority of people would consider the holocaust (and the period of 1914-45 in general) as a far more dark, difficult and dangerous time than the one we're living in now, given the available facts.
Quote ( Vitaly Sevov @ July 23rd 2021,15:36:29 ) People should decide by their own if they need the vax or not. Without any "help" from outside.
The problem with individual choice when it comes to things like vaccines is that your decision doesn't just affect you; it potentially affects anyone/everyone you come into contact with. One person might be quite happy to take their chances without the vaccine, but they can't make that same decision for all the people with whom they have to interact. So what are governments supposed to do, in the interest of public health?
Quote ( Vitaly Sevov @ July 23rd 2021,15:36:29 ) I was healthy, no flue, just a normal person. [...] Or say just put the mask on your face as everybody. Anyway that's not currect.
Actually I think it is correct, I'm sorry to say. Given that we can never actually know for sure whether we have the virus or not (as it's possible for healthy people to carry it without symptoms), the mask dilemma becomes the same as the one I outlined above for the vaccine. Namely, you can make the choice not to wear one, but it's not just about you, it's about protecting others. You might be right - at any given moment you might be virus-free, but you can't actually know that, and neither can those who come into contact with you. Since wearing a mask does no harm to you whatsoever, why not simply wear one for the sake of protecting others? Or is the desire not to conform greater than the desire to keep others safe?
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Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ July 23rd 2021,14:56:04 ) Doesn't the one who plays the nazi card automatically lose the argument?
Godwin's Law:
Crucially, the law asserts that whoever mentions the Nazis first automatically loses the debate
so... Yes.
And...
The move is seen as a sign of desperation
And also...
Hitler ate food and Hitler was genocidist, then food can’t be good.
Food is bad, don't eat food :)
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Quote ( Jens Jäschke @ July 23rd 2021,14:52:52 ) All I see is some nutjobs coming to power and using said power to spread their conspiracy theory even further. There are always some nutjobs, also among scientists, who will gladly claim whatever has the highest chance to make them rich, powerful and famous.
I think you mean popularity on twitter and Facebook with those who would love to believe the earth is also flat if it goes against the norm.
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Quote ( Max Watson @ July 23rd 2021,15:54:10 ) Actually I think it is correct, I'm sorry to say. Given that we can never actually know for sure whether we have the virus or not (as it's possible for healthy people to carry it without symptoms), the mask dilemma becomes the same as the one I outlined above for the vaccine. Namely, you can make the choice not to wear one, but it's not just about you, it's about protecting others. You might be right - at any given moment you might be virus-free, but you can't actually know that, and neither can those who come into contact with you. Since wearing a mask does no harm to you whatsoever, why not simply wear one for the sake of protecting others? Or is the desire not to conform greater than the desire to keep others safe?
You are just another example of how easily a human being can be brain washed. Just come and visit the beaches of the Valencian Comunity. Or local bars. Or you will condemn all of them? Be sure, most of them will put their mask when leaving the beach. :) Wait, they didn't tell you that the mighty virus doesn't attack when you are drinking beer or taking sun? :) Ohh, and what about salt water? Yess, saliva and salt water are quite different things. And the virus is very selective :) And also it doesn't travel trough air, only with saliva. Ohh wait, it does, but you reduce the risk of transpassing it , not eleminate it completely.... I am tired of it. Gone...
The same people whome you believe are behind this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i30SdcfEpSE&t=56s
And there is also like/dislike balance to spot. Nowadays that's what form your opinion. So here at least still there is logic...
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The vaccine problem is not a problem.
What's a problem are the issues of principle that blind many people and don't let you see the obvious.
I personally believe there are always two versions of things. There are always two truths, sometimes neither of them is totally true.
In this case, I think that what is known on both sides about vaccines is important.
On the one hand we have numbers, studies, research, weightings based on results, (obviously that there is a commercial issue and there are financial interests in the whole process), the inspection mechanisms and the strict evaluation rules that conditioned the approval of these vaccines by the various autonomous health-related regulatory bodies around the world.
On the other side we have those who suspect the veracity of the former, who have the right to have their own intuitions about vaccines, who have the right to feel this whole problem differently, who have the right to choose not to take the vaccine , who have the right to form all conspiracy theories.
For me it's very simple, the first ones gave me a lot of information about the benefits of vaccination, with the evidence and data that I mentioned before.
The seconds have so far given me a handful of nothing, they don't have data that contradict the benefits, they don't have any study that proves that what they say has reason to be.
There are certainly many independent investigators with enough credible curriculum to counter the vaccine's effectiveness in this pandemic and to show us that this is all wrong.
If the question is to choose between those who study, rationalize, analyse, those who have acquired knowledge, and those who have the intuition, those who have certain principles because they are defined that way, those who question but have no tangible support, those who do not believe in institutions, who doesn't really believe in the evolution of science (because in terms of the ability to respond in a short space of time there was a brutal evolution), the answer for me is obvious and very easy regarding the option that we should all take.
I believe that we were born to live, that we must be true to ourselves, that we must have the intelligence to analyse each moment and do what is best for our physical survival, that's the only way we can have our mental survival.
Those who deny vaccination are only thinking about their mental survival, which without physical survival will not exist.
Sorry about my English...
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Quote ( Vitaly Sevov @ July 23rd 2021,15:36:29 ) People should decide by their own if they need the vax or not. Without any "help" from outside.
So what are you saying about all those anti-vaxxers that are desperately trying to prevent people from getting the vaccine? And how should one make a well informed decision if the experts aren't allowed to present the facts and recoomendations based on those facts?
I also love how you're just ignoring me after I pointed out your arguments don't make sense. It's so much easier to just close your eyes when someone shows the flaws in your views, isn't it?
Quote ( Vitaly Sevov @ July 23rd 2021,15:36:29 ) But nobody thinks deeper. I was healthy, no flue, just a normal person. But was treated as a allien or rubish.
It's actually you, who doesn't think deeper. You looked healthy, but as Max already said, looks can be deceiving with this pandemic.
If those people were avoiding you and showed their disapproval of your actions, that's their right. It's not just you who gets to choose your own actions, but they have that choice, too, even if you don't like their choice. On top of that, you apparently blatantly broke the law made for their own protection.
Quote ( Mark Witney @ July 23rd 2021,16:53:05 )
I think you mean popularity on twitter and Facebook with those who would love to believe the earth is also flat if it goes against the norm.
I was actually talking about the "scientists" that collaborated with the nazis to spread their ideology, as that was what I was replying to. But yes, the current breed of Covid-Truthers also fit that description quite well. I'd really like to know how much they made in donations "for the good cause".
Quote ( Vitaly Sevov @ July 23rd 2021,16:57:02 ) Wait, they didn't tell you that the mighty virus doesn't attack when you are drinking beer or taking sun?
Yes, some of the rules are bullshit when looking at them from a medical perspective. Most of the bullshit is actually in the exceptions, like the ones you listed. Those exceptions don't make sense and shouldn't be there. But the government has to keep the people happy at the same time, or risk other, worse, problems. So they have to choose their battles. People will agree to wearing masks everywhere, as long as they can take them off when sitting in the sun and drinking beer (with proper distancing)? Sure, not ideal but better than if they don't wear masks at all.
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I have a friend who publishes (sorry, copies) loads of anti vax stuff on Facebook. It's quite funny, all but once I've debunked his comments simply by looking at the sites he's (his heroes) referenced, the subtle manipulation of facts is readily ignored by those who want to believe in a global conspiracy.
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Quote ( Vitaly Sevov @ July 23rd 2021,16:57:02 ) Just come and visit the beaches of the Valencian Comunity. Or local bars. Or you will condemn all of them? Be sure, most of them will put their mask when leaving the beach. :) Wait, they didn't tell you that the mighty virus doesn't attack when you are drinking beer or taking sun? :) Ohh, and what about salt water? Yess, saliva and salt water are quite different things. And the virus is very selective :)
So your argument against the principle is that people execute the principle imperfectly? I'm not sure how far you can go with that one.
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Sometimes discussing things properly is just not possible. Whether it is due to being narrow minded, overly convince of their personal truth or a plain choice of rather being misinformed, and gladly sticking it to it.
However, when comparisons are made with the WWII period only to "prove" a pov, then things should be redirected to first diving into some apparently much needed history refreshing lessons. Must have been one of those subjects in which you didn't do well in school back in the day. This sort of misplaced misuse of openly and widely available information, scrutinized from multiple angles, makes it that continuing this discussion is utterly pointless!
Get your vaccine, or don't, suit yourself! Nobody knows all the details around the 'Rona virus yet, so everybody can be right or wrong however you want to take it. But to choose to not properly filter REAL information from all bogus wappie-talk is possibly as dangerous as high-diving into a kiddie pool with just 3 inches of water in it ... Be my guest though ;)
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Geert Vanden Bossche. GEEERT VANDEN BOSSCHE!
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thought of the day: I write it to you in Italian then you translate it into your mother tongue: chi rifiuta oppure non si vaccina dovrebbe essere coerente con se stesso e rinunciare alle cure nel caso se venga infettato dal virus covit-19
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So.... um....
We've had mini outbreak in the office with Covid....
Our patient 'zero' was vaccinated.... all shots done.
Round and round we go...
(Oh, I guess, good idea to give a point of reference on where I stand on vaccines, so yeah, all my kids are very much up to date on all the traditional vaccines)
What happened to not taking the vaccine is irresponsible because you risking other peoples lives, must take the vaccine to protect your family and friends and those unable to take the vaccine. Remember that?
Now we being told the vaccine was always about just helping people not get very sick, so they don't go to hospital, i.e. only helps the vaccinated person...... um.... ok....?
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Quote ( MG van Rensburg @ August 12th 2021,09:24:09 ) Now we being told the vaccine was always about just helping people not get very sick, so they don't go to hospital
More than 99.99% of people who are fully vaccinated against Covid-19 have not had a breakthrough case resulting in hospitalization or death, (according to analysis of data from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
https://edition.cnn.com/us/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic-va...
Quote ( MG van Rensburg @ August 12th 2021,09:24:09 ) What happened to not taking the vaccine is irresponsible because you risking other peoples lives, must take the vaccine to protect your family and friends and those unable to take the vaccine. Remember that?
It's still valid, but ofcourse no protection is 100%.
In hundreds of millions people there is a chance that a few cases arise.
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Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ August 12th 2021,09:56:10 ) More than 99.99% of people who are fully vaccinated against Covid-19 have not had a breakthrough case resulting in hospitalization or death, (according to analysis of data from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
I'm not sure you understood the point I was making as I'm not disputing this, but stating how this turns the narrative on its head about taking the vaccine to protect other people, not only yourself.
Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ August 12th 2021,09:56:10 ) In hundreds of millions people there is a chance that a few cases arise.
I think you may want to have a look at the latest stats and such regarding confirmed infections amongst vaccinated people I'm afraid.
Just for clarity. My problem isn't so much the situation but this seemingly constant moving of the ''goal post'/'narrative'.
This is actually our offices first outbreak, of any staff member being sick since this all started interestingly enough. I'm in HR, and with our quite strict labour laws, I've had to watch and document, and plan/record our 'covid' strategy religiously now for over a year, and going back on my notes now, tracking how the narrative has evolved, the past 9 months especially, it does not paint a reassuring picture at all at this point.
The most fascinating part of it, I know I personally wouldn't be remotely aware of the shift in narrative if I hadn't been forced to document it for work. Its crazy how much we 'think we remember' with how everything we see everyday can genuinely manipulate it so easy.
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